FAQ / Contact

Author Topic: Funding the new hangar - how?  (Read 1437 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline sickbag_andy

  • Club Member
  • Expert User
  • *****
  • Posts: 3091
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • http://www.superguppy.co.uk
Funding the new hangar - how?
« on: September 23, 2017, 08:48:38 AM »
2 extracts from this week's newsletter (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/6monthreview.html)

1: From Dr. Pleming's statement:
The work done on the design of the new hangar also generated an estimate for the total cost of construction and fit-out – some £2.8million, including start-up working capital. Unlike many other charities, the Trust does not have an endowment or capital reserves, so the plan is to find an investor or consortium to fund the build, with the added attraction of contributing to the development of the Airport.

In parallel with the planning activity, a Business Plan for the Heritage Hangar has been created, based on the successful business model in Hangar 3 of visitor tours, events, merchandising and catering. This Business Plan has been to subject of extensive review and will continue to be updated, as we need it to be as robust as possible. The Business Plan is aimed at demonstrating that an investor funding the construction of the new Heritage Hangar will be assured of an acceptable return on an investment.

We are already talking to prospective investors, and expect to gain valuable feedback on optimising the attractiveness of our proposition over coming weeks. As with any charity embarking on a new direction, we are drawing on advice from various quarters, especially from those who have experience of similar projects.  It’s difficult to be definite on timescales, but we very much hope to open for business in the new Heritage Hangar in 2018. If there is anyone reading this who believes they have the relevant experience to help, please contact me


and 2: from the Q&A section of the same (answers by Trustee Dr. Stephen Liddle)
At the moment, the Trust is working with the airport to deliver a new home for XH558 where she will be permanently under cover and accessible, much like she was in H3. The aircraft are currently outside, which given that they will be maintained, is acceptable for the short time proposed. The design for the hangar is complete and we anticipate planning permission to be achieved in the coming months. At the same time, the Trust is very actively pursuing the funding required to complete the project. The model proposed would see the hangar constructed and then leased to us for a period of at least ten years. There is a clear business case for this proposal, in that the developer would have a valuable commercial building on the site of a growing airport at the end. By that time, the Trust would expect to move to the final phase of the Etna project, in a new building that will be planned at the airport

The construction of the new hangar will take about one year in total. The Trust is confident from its experience of H3 that the costs of the lease can be met from the attraction itself.


I am concerned!
Back in or around early 2015 I posed a question about the funding and building of ETNA and the reply was that it was planned by acquiring funds was at an early stage with near to nothing actually raised - it was okay being optomistic abut was that being realistic? - it appears no.

Now we see a planning submission for a smaller establishment with promises that it will be ready by 2018, but once again the Trust is looking for investors so really it's deja-vu but the 'vu' is somewhat smaller. So that 2018 date, although it's planned has little or nothing in hard cash to make it happen at this stage. The submission has only just been presented so planning permission is probably going to take 2 months IF it's straight forward with no objections (i.e. end of November at the earliest), then assuming the funds are there to build it by then a contract has to be awarded - probably at least another 2 months (based on how long contract awards used to take in my days of civil engineering) so that's end of January. The newsletter/update says 12 month construction period so that immediately takes it with a sensible optomistic approach to end of January 2019. So how has 2018 been proposed?

The Trust is talking to prospective investors over the coming weeks - surely that should have been done before now, IF planning permission is granted (and I personally think it will be) albeit with a delayed start even if funding is in place then the funds need to be in place soon to avoid a year's delay. Why? those pesky newts:
from the government website (they have an extensive list of dos and donts re newts):
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/great-crested-newts-surveys-and-mitigation-for-development-projects
trap between mid-February and mid-June to remove breeding adults
remove vegetation that supports eggs

so it will be end of June before construction can actually start so unless that 12 month period includes the 4 months to remove the newts then it will be mid June 2019 before the hangar is completed.

The plan relies on an investor accepting a reasonable return for 10 years before ETNA is ready - so now it's 10 years for ETNA, can the Trust really predict 10 years ahead with any confidence? Supposing they get the investor for this hangar but after 10 years they are 'out on their ear' with no ETNA then it will have just gone  a 10 year full circle albeit with much higher costs. It seems that after almost 3 years since my question there is still no investor coming forward even for something which will have commercial benefit in both the short and long term for that investor or more importantly for ETNA - isn't this just delaying the inevitable?
 In 10 years time most of us who remember the Vulcan will either be dead, in nursing homes or (if young enough) will be watching other aircraft rather than one that has been generally stuck in a hangar forgotten by the many and only seen running by the rich few, in short I don't think the funding or the enthusiasm from the public will be there.

Previously I said I believed Doncaster was the right place during the flying phase but once flying finished then a commercial base was risky. There have been good reasons put forward for not going to Bruntingthorpe or Elvington and the commercial aspect applies certainly to the former but to try to create a one aircraft museum from nothing was over optomisitc I'm afraid. 558 should have gone to an existing collection even if it were only able to fast taxi in the short to medium term, lets face it , there hasn't been much taxiing to date and that was seen as a big carrot for being preserved at Doncaster, had she been somewhere in an existing collection where taxi runs could have gone on from the start at modest cost (not with the constraints of a commercial civil airport) then the interest at least during the short/medium term would have been greater and the chance of raising money to fund some sort of hangar (if one wasn't already available) would have been far greater.

We have to accept that moving 558 now is unrealistic unless she is dismantled and then reassembled as a static exhibit but if  the new hangar can't be funded (and it appears difficult) then maybe that is the best option as at least she can be back in some sort of public eye. I hope the funds materialse but to be honest to me the signs are not optomistic.
confacimus volatemum

the proud owner of the only Martin Withers signed sickbag of 558 flight vintage IN THE WORLD!

Offline dee

  • Global Moderator
  • Expert User
  • *****
  • Posts: 4116
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Funding the new hangar - how?
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2017, 08:55:19 AM »
Not inspiring at all is it!!! >:D >:D >:D
That huge triangle against the sky like some monstrous angel trailing dark clouds of glory

Offline Mayfly

  • Club Member
  • Expert User
  • *****
  • Posts: 1437
    • View Profile
Re: Funding the new hangar - how?
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2017, 11:36:41 AM »
Ermmm.... wasn't it mentioned earlier in the year that they had someone lined up for funding the new Hangar, now they say they are in talks with prospective investors or is my memory playing tricks on me?

As with all press releases it appears to be a game of smoke and mirrors.

Offline sickbag_andy

  • Club Member
  • Expert User
  • *****
  • Posts: 3091
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • http://www.superguppy.co.uk
Re: Funding the new hangar - how?
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2017, 05:01:06 PM »
.........and even if they somehow get the money for the hangar where's the plan B if the funding for ETNA isn't forthcoming?

The initial hangar is comparatively easy as the investor has a usable asset at the end of it. ETNA will be purpose built so where's the commercial return even if they can build it?

Then of course if there is no sign of the funding for ETNA a year or three down the line the airport might offer the designated site to somebody else for commercial use and 558 will be put out to grass in the open, assuming of course there is still a space available somewhere by that time - that could be when the real crunch comes (not literally I hope!).
confacimus volatemum

the proud owner of the only Martin Withers signed sickbag of 558 flight vintage IN THE WORLD!

Offline dee

  • Global Moderator
  • Expert User
  • *****
  • Posts: 4116
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Funding the new hangar - how?
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2017, 09:26:58 AM »
:'( :'( :'(
That huge triangle against the sky like some monstrous angel trailing dark clouds of glory

Offline ADI

  • Club Member
  • Regular User
  • *****
  • Posts: 207
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Funding the new hangar - how?
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2017, 09:18:02 PM »
i'm wondering how long the lease is on the piece of land,

what a disaster thought i'd be enjoying fast taxi runs every few months by now  >:(

what a load of b.s. we were promised.  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( :'(


Offline Vulcanatic

  • Regular User
  • *****
  • Posts: 97
  • Gender: Male
  • Vulcan Fanatic
    • View Profile
Re: Funding the new hangar - how?
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2017, 10:56:04 PM »
It reads like another 'Jam Tomorrow' spiel, or more specifically Jam in 2018 as long as you give us a barrowload of cash now.

I wonder if they've been deluged by offers of free labour by a new army of volunteers?  >:D

As far as moving XH558 if this was a better option, is there a low loader out there with the capability of carrying the Vulcan whole?
(Bridges & flyovers aside!)
Chris

Offline sickbag_andy

  • Club Member
  • Expert User
  • *****
  • Posts: 3091
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • http://www.superguppy.co.uk
Re: Funding the new hangar - how?
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2017, 07:59:14 AM »
It reads like another 'Jam Tomorrow' spiel, or more specifically Jam in 2018 as long as you give us a barrowload of cash now.


As far as moving XH558 if this was a better option, is there a low loader out there with the capability of carrying the Vulcan whole?
(Bridges & flyovers aside!)

more like Jam in 2019 really when you look at the total timescale.

I don't think anything could move her whole - too heavy for the airlander and that's about all that could cope with the wingspan. That's why I feel we might have to resign ourselves to her being static only in the medium term if the hangar doesn't happen.
confacimus volatemum

the proud owner of the only Martin Withers signed sickbag of 558 flight vintage IN THE WORLD!

Offline Zero One

  • Club Member
  • Expert User
  • *****
  • Posts: 1676
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Funding the new hangar - how?
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2017, 08:00:35 AM »
.........

Then of course if there is no sign of the funding for ETNA a year or three down the line the airport might offer the designated site to somebody else for commercial use and 558 will be put out to grass in the open, assuming of course there is still a space available somewhere by that time - that could be when the real crunch comes (not literally I hope!).

Red Arrows maybe?  ^-^
Buccaneer XX900 Crew Chief and Brunty Bears keeper

Offline hairrig

  • Club Member
  • Regular User
  • *****
  • Posts: 220
    • View Profile
Re: Funding the new hangar - how?
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2017, 01:31:55 PM »
Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this yet but the application is now live on the Doncaster MBC planning website and the associated documents have now been loaded.

http://planning.doncaster.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=OW61G9FXJRD00

Only had a quick look at the Design and Access statement so far and its a shame no one proof read it ::)

Offline hairrig

  • Club Member
  • Regular User
  • *****
  • Posts: 220
    • View Profile
Re: Funding the new hangar - how?
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2017, 01:36:52 PM »
Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this yet but the application is now live on the Doncaster MBC planning website and the associated documents have now been loaded.

http://planning.doncaster.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=OW61G9FXJRD00

Only had a quick look at the Design and Access statement so far and its a shame no one proof read it ::)


Looks like our fears about 558 being hung out to dry might be right the Drainage Strategy talks about the 'Vulcan Hanger'.

Offline arnk

  • Club Member
  • Regular User
  • *****
  • Posts: 188
    • View Profile
Re: Funding the new hangar - how?
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2017, 10:28:37 PM »
Quote
I don't think anything could move her whole - too heavy for the airlander and that's about all that could cope with the wingspan. That's why I feel we might have to resign ourselves to her being static only in the medium term if the hangar doesn't happen.

Airlander 10 can lift 13 tonnes.  The Mil-26 helicopter can lift 20 tonnes, but not far.  The Vulcan weighs 37 tonnes empty, but XH558 is supposedly lighter.  If you took out the engines that would only save 8 tonnes?  If they build the bigger Airlander then a lift may be possible?  50 miles to Elvington, 85 miles to Bruntingthorpe.

Al

Offline Paramania

  • phpBB Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 7
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Funding the new hangar - how?
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2017, 11:58:02 PM »
Maybe they can lift the new hangar too!


Offline minty4371

  • Club Member
  • Serious User
  • *****
  • Posts: 765
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Funding the new hangar - how?
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2017, 03:02:32 PM »
Seen this today.
"Vulcan to the Sky Trust spokesman Richard Clarke said the scheme would not be able to move forwards until an investor was in place, and the trust was currently actively looking for that investor.

The trust is also currently raising funds from the public towards the costs.

He said: "We would like to think when planning permission comes forward we could move forward as soon as possible. That is the aspiration and we wanted to start the ball rolling by putting the planning application in..

"We would like to be looking at starting next year, but it is difficult to put a date on it.."


Complete article here: http://wearedoncaster.co.uk/news/vulcan-bomber-tourist-attraction-plans-submitted/

Thought they had got the money for the hangar, so that is why they put in the planning application.

Edited to amend article link.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 04:34:53 PM by minty4371 »
My flickr site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/16521384@N07/collections/
Club Member of Vulcan XH558 since 1st April 2008; Member of XM655 MaPS; Member of 82045 Locomotive Trust.

Offline PaulH2015

  • Regular User
  • *****
  • Posts: 139
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Funding the new hangar - how?
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2017, 03:36:20 PM »
From http://www.vulcantothesky.org/xh558-s-survival/survival-q-a.html

"What's costs associated with the new hanger is the trust paying for?

"The Trust cannot afford to pay anything for the development of the new hangar; initial planning work is being performed pro bono by a number of firms, the costs of construction will be an investment by a developer, who will then lease it to the Trust. Supportive contractors are offering their services at cost, significantly reducing the capital required."

As I understand it this refers to the temporary hangar in the planning application.  If they still need an investor for that then I can't see anything happening.