Vulcan To The Sky - Forums

XH558 Operations => Engineering => Topic started by: Funtera on June 21, 2015, 11:59:24 PM

Title: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: Funtera on June 21, 2015, 11:59:24 PM
I am asking this question as someone who has done a few in Small Aircraft ...

We know the Barrell Roll is done at constant 1g - so - my question is ..

Why not Do them ?

We know the Wing-overs can pull 2g .. is there something else here ?
We also know Our Lady can do them and Pilots referred to the Vulcan as having the Roll rate of a Phantom

(Apologies if this has been asked before but I couldn't see it)
Title: Re: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: planenut on June 22, 2015, 09:21:58 AM
It is odd that when I search for this previous discussion, I could find no trace of it. We lost a lot of history when we changed to this website.
It has been discussed and as you imply, it's less stress than pulling the aircraft back to level flight. I think the restrictions placed on XH558 actually preclude it.
Title: Re: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: Paddy Langdown on June 22, 2015, 02:02:44 PM
And quite right too. Roly Falk did it at Farnborough in 1955 & the aircraft was ruined (so I am led to believe).
See it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afj19PedlxE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afj19PedlxE)


If you haven't seen the Vulcan "roll-off-the-top" - look at this one by Tony Blackman.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUi8-V28Vcc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUi8-V28Vcc)
Title: Re: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: speedy on June 22, 2015, 02:24:02 PM
Forget the hypothesis about stress, technique, risk, etc, etc.... there's one extraordinarily simple reason why 558 doesn't do a barrel roll, and never will.  She's a display aircraft and not an aerobatic one, therefore is not permitted to do anything classed as aerobatics, lest anyone get into serious trouble.  If she did go all the way round, the paperwork would probably make the collection engineering documentation look like light reading, and there'd probably be an immediate end to flying, never mind the person driving probably losing their licence!

I hadn't heard any ideas of the aircraft rolled by Falk at Farnborough being damaged by it, but the story goes that he was told very definitely never to do it again even though it was apparently agreed at the time is was safe to do and posed no risk to the airframe or the crowd.  However, it was allegedly worrying the people on the ground (maybe it was an excuse or cover-up?).  I presume it wasn't unheard of to roll production Vulcans as I'm sure somewhere I saw comments from ex flight crew suggesting the B1 marks rolled more easily than the B2.  Oh, and Mike Bannister and his French equivalent rolled Concorde just because they could....
Title: Re: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: speedy on June 22, 2015, 02:31:48 PM

If you haven't seen the Vulcan "roll-off-the-top" - look at this one by Tony Blackman.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUi8-V28Vcc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUi8-V28Vcc)

Crikey!!
Title: Re: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: Mags on June 22, 2015, 10:15:10 PM
DROOL............................. :P
Title: Re: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: Tyler S Gibson on June 26, 2015, 08:33:09 AM

If you haven't seen the Vulcan "roll-off-the-top" - look at this one by Tony Blackman.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUi8-V28Vcc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUi8-V28Vcc)

Crikey!!

You're not kidding! Thats something else is that, never seen vape off a Vulcan wing before.
Title: Re: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: Mattk303 on October 12, 2015, 11:53:40 PM
Forget the hypothesis about stress, technique, risk, etc, etc.... there's one extraordinarily simple reason why 558 doesn't do a barrel roll, and never will.  She's a display aircraft and not an aerobatic one, therefore is not permitted to do anything classed as aerobatics, lest anyone get into serious trouble.  If she did go all the way round, the paperwork would probably make the collection engineering documentation look like light reading, and there'd probably be an immediate end to flying, never mind the person driving probably losing their licence!

I hadn't heard any ideas of the aircraft rolled by Falk at Farnborough being damaged by it, but the story goes that he was told very definitely never to do it again even though it was apparently agreed at the time is was safe to do and posed no risk to the airframe or the crowd.  However, it was allegedly worrying the people on the ground (maybe it was an excuse or cover-up?).  I presume it wasn't unheard of to roll production Vulcans as I'm sure somewhere I saw comments from ex flight crew suggesting the B1 marks rolled more easily than the B2.  Oh, and Mike Bannister and his French equivalent rolled Concorde just because they could....

I heard the reason Vulcans were prevented from rolling was that it happened once and the pilot was told off by someone wearing a lot of scrambled egg as it wasn't the sort of thing a bomber should be seen to be doing... I can easily believe that

Title: Re: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: Vulcanatic on October 13, 2015, 03:13:12 PM
And quite right too. Roly Falk did it at Farnborough in 1955 & the aircraft was ruined (so I am led to believe).
See it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afj19PedlxE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afj19PedlxE)

If you haven't seen the Vulcan "roll-off-the-top" - look at this one by Tony Blackman.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUi8-V28Vcc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUi8-V28Vcc)


Awesome bit of footage!
Talking of Tony Blackman, in his book "Vulcan Test Pilot" he details the tragic events surrounding VULCAN VX770 which broke up in flight at the Syreston Air Show in 1958.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji24Rr1UWyw
The aeroplane had not been with the RAF for very long, all 4 crew were lost in this accident and 3 safety personnel were killed on the ground.
It has been hypothesised that this was a leading-edge failure which was caused by Pilots pushing their new toy to, and beyond, its limits once they were safely out of sight of their base. The damage had probably been caused well in advance of this event but only became apparent when they attempted a particularly fast flypast, (the plane was originally designed to fly pretty close to Mach 1 but at high altitude where there was much lower wind resistance).

Tony Blackman describes how Avro employed a diminutive engineer who used to regularly inspect the wings leading edge for structural failure from inside the wing, it seems likely that this information was not communicated to the RAF and they were not carrying out such rigorous visual checks between flights.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1958_Syerston_Avro_Vulcan_crash

It was XA890 that was famously barrel-rolled at Farnborough.
http://www.vulcanvault.co.uk/xa890.html
I too have not come to hear of any issues identified as as result of this manoeuvre.

It was this type of daring flying,however, which probably convinced the RAF flyboys that they could emulate such antics safely in the Vulcans they'd just been given.

Roly Falk was, by that time, less a test pilot and more a Sales Executive.  Avro was competing with Vickers & Handley Page for sales of V-Force bombers.  Showing this super-heavy bomber handling like a fighter jet would probably have sealed the deal for potential future orders! (They'd call it 'sexing-up' the product today.)
Title: Re: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: leslie on October 13, 2015, 04:33:38 PM
We put a plaque at Syerstone remembering those who died on that day, during our first cycle ride.
Title: Re: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: sweetktg on November 04, 2015, 10:03:47 AM
I'm surprised nobody else has posted this yet!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-34712346
Title: Re: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: Mayfly on November 04, 2015, 10:06:24 AM
They have

http://www.vulcantothesky.org/smf/index.php?topic=7455.msg76952#new
Title: Re: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: Vulcanatic on November 04, 2015, 01:36:01 PM
Looks to be a roll, (a sort of a barrel roll? may have started off as an Immelmann manoeuvre & got carried away?)

If this is pukka, it's a bit mad that the Pilot would want to attempt this just days before the 'Farewell' Tour.

It's also a bit mad that he'd want to attempt this at all, knowing that previous aircraft have been left weakened by Pilots on 'jollies' which has killed the crew flying them weeks later.
Title: Re: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: PhillyJ on November 04, 2015, 02:18:48 PM
It must be true, it's on the Daily Mail webpage now :-)
Title: Re: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: JeremyC on November 04, 2015, 03:56:19 PM
Who was flying on the 4th?

Why is this 'video' so jerky, does it purport to be a sequence taken with a still camera?  Looks suspiciously like a very skilful mash-up.
Title: Re: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: PhillyJ on November 04, 2015, 04:01:43 PM
Exactly, too jerky to be taken as 'evidence' and surprised this is the only 'video' of the alleged incident...I think this has pretty much been rubbished elsewhere and on a lot of other forums, it's a shame that someone has posted this and if indeed it is cobbled together then they are subjecting a pilot who could be at risk of losing his license over false allegations. I'm sure the CAA will see it for what it is. Pilot was Kev from what I remember...
Title: Re: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: Vulcanatic on November 04, 2015, 06:26:12 PM
It definitely happened, someone else has captured it for posterity;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmPbl7_m4-g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmPbl7_m4-g)
Title: Re: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: PhillyJ on November 05, 2015, 12:39:12 AM
Wow, yeah I stand corrected! That is a definite barrel roll, and done so smoothly!  >:D
Title: Re: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: Wizzy on November 05, 2015, 09:44:03 AM
Looks convincing enough to me!

Actually, there's proof here that Tina's crew got there first:

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y220/Meddled/output_aXN6Ak_zpspcldd6sd.gif)
Title: Re: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: sweetktg on November 05, 2015, 02:11:49 PM
I like this one too...

https://www.facebook.com/don.johnstone2/videos/10153731922943276/
Title: Re: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: muchado on November 05, 2015, 08:02:12 PM
Loving the video with the reds!   LOL
Title: Re: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: vulcanlover on November 06, 2015, 05:43:54 AM
I wish people would stop denying that the barrel roll happened.

I have photographic proof...

(http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv33/vulcanlover/PROOF_zpswrhsebft.jpg) (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/vulcanlover/media/PROOF_zpswrhsebft.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: Mags on November 06, 2015, 06:02:14 PM
HaHaHa.......brilliant!! ;D 8)
Title: Re: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: Funtera on November 07, 2015, 03:58:04 PM
Me and the mrs both just watched the "Barrel Roll" ... Both said BS at the same time ..
Our Crews are too Professional to risk their Careers or the Aircraft in that way .. Plus, if they were going to have Done it ..
They'd have done it on the Final Flight with Proper Cameras running , not a Mash-up of Still Images
Title: Re: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: Mac on November 07, 2015, 05:28:41 PM
It was a bit more publicity for the old girl............. :)
Title: Re: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: Binka on August 10, 2017, 10:18:40 AM
I came across this old thread on the internet and joined the forum to post.  I don't have an awful lot of interest in agitation but living just outside of Lincoln am used to seeing a lot of planes and the Vulcan was always a great sight before it wasn't grounded.  A couple of years ago I was out cycling between Saxilby and sturton and the Vulcan flew past me and then for the next 20 mins flew laps over the fields and repeatedly did barrel rolls.  Very sadly I didn't have my phone with meno footage or photos.  I had no idea it was capable of doing this and got off my bike and stood and watched absolutely mesmerised.  I can't remember the exact date but it was after it had been announced it would be soon grounded so possibly might tie in with approx sept/oct 2015??? Not sure. 
Title: Re: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: StAthan lecky on August 10, 2017, 05:37:33 PM
It happened at least twice and both pilots were effectively sacked by the Trust !!

Mike
Title: Re: Engineering View - Barrell roll !
Post by: Gregg on August 11, 2017, 07:50:38 AM
Me and the mrs both just watched the "Barrel Roll" ... Both said BS at the same time ..
Our Crews are too Professional to risk their Careers or the Aircraft in that way .. Plus, if they were going to have Done it ..
They'd have done it on the Final Flight with Proper Cameras running , not a Mash-up of Still Images

It happened. There was one video of it that i know of that was subsequently deleted. Really wasn't that impressive. ;D