Vulcan To The Sky - Forums

XH558 Operations => Engineering => Topic started by: JeremyC on November 03, 2015, 08:58:40 AM

Title: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: JeremyC on November 03, 2015, 08:58:40 AM
So if the the trust where to take on a new 'to the sky project' what would you nominate?

My 'realistic' pool would be Lightning, Buccaneer & Harrier from which I'd probably plump for the Lightning though it's fag paper close.

My 'unrealistic' pool has a Victor and Concorde in it!

And as an completely left field suggestion a new Avro 707 from scratch with a modern engine.
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: jocelyn on November 03, 2015, 09:43:14 AM
Great list !! But...the CAA would not like it  !!!   
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: JeremyC on November 03, 2015, 11:01:09 AM
I suspect the Bucc and Harrier are the most realistic.  Lightnings are probably too leaky.
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: 747pete on November 03, 2015, 12:45:46 PM
Ihttp://www.incredible-adventures.com/cape-town-jets-news-2010aug.htm         lt has already been tried but not that easy....
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: ascot5046 on November 03, 2015, 01:07:55 PM
Lightning? - No Way! Though as an ex No.2(T) Sqn [Coltishall] avionics fitter, it would be awesome!  I was fortunate to have 2 trips in a T5 and, despite the first one toppling my gyros for 4 days with motion sickness, it was one of the highlights of my RAF career- thanks to Wg Cdr Paul Hobley, Sqn OC.

And while much has been documented about the incessant leaks and poor fire integrity, the crash in Cape Town in 2009 which resulted in the death of one of Thunder City's pilots was the end of the line for Mike Beachy Head's operation when the SA CAA withdrew his company's operating permit.

The aircraft suffered hydraulic failure after a fire started in the rear of the fuselage.  The pilot, Dave Stock,  was killed because his ejection seat failed due to poor maintenance practices.  As it happened, the T5, ZU-BEX [previously RAF no. XS451] was one of the two aircraft I flew in mentioned above.

As I remember, there were no internal fuel tank bladders in the wings, hence the large number of bins underneath the jets when in the hangar as well as liberal amounts of "swoop" [a.k.a. Chicken S"*t] spread around! The amount of "PRC" mastic used to plug the leaks must have increased the all up weight of 1 or 2 of the beasties!

So no CAA approval - indeed they weren't event granted permission to fly out of the UK to South Africa when the Buccaneers were.
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: muchado on November 03, 2015, 01:20:04 PM
TSR2.. completely way out there because the project was cancelled. but to get one of the remaining at least Taxiable would be amazing!
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: Funtera on November 03, 2015, 01:41:28 PM
I'd go for the Harrier ..
still in Service so RR couldn't say they've not got the experience on the Pegusus and Spares are all over the place ..
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: Vulcanatic on November 03, 2015, 01:54:12 PM
So if the the trust where to take on a new 'to the sky project' what would you nominate?

My 'realistic' pool would be Lightning, Buccaneer & Harrier from which I'd probably plump for the Lightning though it's fag paper close.

My 'unrealistic' pool has a Victor and Concorde in it!

And as an completely left field suggestion a new Avro 707 from scratch with a modern engine.

If The Trust wish to carry out a worthwhile heritage restoration project to get an iconic & enormously popular plane back in the air, here is my even more unrealistic list;
1. AVRO VULCAN XH558
2.

Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: PaulH2015 on November 03, 2015, 03:06:28 PM
Talking after Gaydon on the Final Display sortie Dr Plemming was discussing what could come next.  Someone mentioned the Lightning and he said 'no way' as it had been so dangerous when in service, killing more pilots than the infamous Starfighter.  Ditto Concorde as BAS had point-blank said they wouldn't support it.  A couple of people (me included) mentioned the Harrier, which he didn't comment on, his preference being the Mosquito (equal first in my book) which is already underway of course, with Bill Ramsey already involved.
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: vulcanlover on November 04, 2015, 05:21:17 AM
Personally, that's it for me!!!

There is no other Aircraft that would motivate me to go out of my way to see it display...apart from another Vulcan.

I am planning on keeping up with my membership to the club, just as long as it's worth the money...after all, I am a Yorkshireman!!!
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: sickbag_andy on November 04, 2015, 09:00:29 AM
I really don't know what would motivate me to the level of support that I've given the Vulcan over the last 12 or so years.

Probably the only thing that comes anywhere near close is a Mosquito

As far as jets are concerned I have reservations about them flying in civilian hands post Shoreham (and Carfest) and much as I enjoyed seeing Lightnings fly in the past I would  be very anti any attempt to get one back in the air as even with the greatest of care I feel it could be an accident waiting to happen. I'd rather see F.16s or similar doing their thing at far less cost and being modern probably far safer.

This has made me think a bit following yesterday's newsletter though (and I could open a can of worms here), I have a standing order to the Trust 'for the maintenance and operation of Vulcan XH558' - and now I presume preservation as well. If they have a desire to get involved in other projects:
1: can I be sure that my donation would be entirely on XH558 and not partly on other projects
2: if they get involved in other projects would I have any say in what those projects are and if I didn't wish to support and if point 1 is not met, could my donation to '558 be ring fenced for the intended purpose or would it be a case of 'hard luck' at which point I would have to walk away.

I suppose the same could be asked of my club membership, if from time to time the club continues to hand over money to the Trust, will they get an assurance that such monies will go solely towards'558 rather than other projects?
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: planenut on November 04, 2015, 09:04:39 AM
Resurrect another post........ http://www.vulcantothesky.org/smf/index.php?topic=6069.msg67533#msg67533
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: Lincoln on November 04, 2015, 09:26:58 PM
I jokingly asked the other day what it would take to get the Lincoln at Cosford up and running  ;) ;D


Perhaps the Argentinians would let us have one of the two over there  ;) . I doubt the Australians would let us have theirs.
A Lancaster, Lincoln, Shackleton formation just sounds amazing  ;D (literally lol).
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: sickbag_andy on November 05, 2015, 08:10:21 AM
I really don't know what would motivate me to the level of support that I've given the Vulcan over the last 12 or so years.

Probably the only thing that comes anywhere near close is a Mosquito


looks like somebody is hoping to answer my dreams: https://www.facebook.com/BigginHillHeritageHangar/posts/841733992601009

fantastic news to start the day off, lets hope it can happen even if it takes a while!

And as an aside, I noticed on UKAR (where I found the link to the Mossie news) a post which says that the Trust are interested in helping to get 'Just Jane' airworthy.
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: PhillyJ on November 05, 2015, 01:09:28 PM
Indeed, excellent news about the 'Mossie', this would get me to airshows with the same fervour as XH558.
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: JeremyC on November 05, 2015, 02:01:28 PM
A two Lancaster plus Mosquito display would be a site to behold.
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: Lincoln on November 05, 2015, 05:49:53 PM
You wait years for one then two come along at once  ;)
Wonder if this affects the People's mosquito at all.
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: DLee on November 08, 2015, 12:50:10 PM
I'd love to see a Canberra back on the UK air show circuit.  OK, a Canberra can't match XH558 for sheer presence and grace in the air, but it could be a good candidate as a cold war living memorial and is still plenty loud enough to turn heads.  Anyone know what has happened to Midair Squadron and XH134?
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: Vulcanatic on November 08, 2015, 02:13:03 PM
I'd love to see a Canberra back on the UK air show circuit.  OK, a Canberra can't match XH558 for sheer presence and grace in the air, but it could be a good candidate as a cold war living memorial and is still plenty loud enough to turn heads.  Anyone know what has happened to Midair Squadron and XH134?

I think restoring a Canberra to flight for display would just mirror all the same major issues with keeping XH558 in flight but without the same level of payoff.
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: Steve58 on November 08, 2015, 05:15:36 PM
Assuming money no object, I'd like to see XM655 & XL426 (both in taxiable condition) made airworthy, plus do whatever it takes to get XH588 up as well.
Picture this,
It's a hot sunny day, three Vulcans approach the centre of the runway from different directions, then, all stand on their tails and corkscrew upward around each other at full throttle! imagine the noise!

I would never miss that show!
Probably asking too much though, a sunny day i mean!

Otherwise I wouldn't mind seeing another couple of Vampires made airworthy as I believe there is only one left, that would also make an interesting trio.
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: Vulcanatic on November 08, 2015, 05:47:56 PM
Assuming money no object, I'd like to see XM655 & XL426 (both in taxiable condition) made airworthy, plus do whatever it takes to get XH588 up as well.
Picture this,
It's a hot sunny day, three Vulcans approach the centre of the runway from different directions, then, all stand on their tails and corkscrew upward around each other at full throttle! imagine the noise!

I would never miss that show!
Probably asking too much though, a sunny day i mean!

Otherwise I wouldn't mind seeing another couple of Vampires made airworthy as I believe there is only one left, that would also make an interesting trio.

Money would have to be no object as I could see this being a £Bn+ project!
It's sad to say that VULCAN's taking to the air in number would have been overlooked in places due to being so commonplace, or even regarded as a nuisance.
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: Buzz Lightyear2. on November 10, 2015, 06:05:16 PM
Does anybody remember the day 7 yes 7 Vulcans took off from Woodford practically all together? I think it was in the late 50s or early 60s, There were thousands of broken windows all over Stockport. I would love to have been there.
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: planenut on November 10, 2015, 08:01:32 PM
Does anybody remember the day 7 yes 7 Vulcans took off from Woodford practically all together? I think it was in the late 50s or early 60s, There were thousands of broken windows all over Stockport. I would love to have been there.

Smashing stuff!
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: Funtera on November 11, 2015, 01:40:40 AM
Does anybody remember the day 7 yes 7 Vulcans took off from Woodford practically all together? I think it was in the late 50s or early 60s, There were thousands of broken windows all over Stockport. I would love to have been there.

Smashing stuff!

Your Jokes can be a real Pane at times
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: Smudger565 on November 11, 2015, 04:14:44 PM
I believe there is a Flying Canberra with Mid-Air Sqn which will be back on the airshow circuit next year. ;)

They had a few issues this year and off the top of my head I cannot remember why it did not fly, something about paperwork rings a bell but I could be wrong  ???


PS

(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm301/PSM565/IMG_2029.jpg) (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/PSM565/media/IMG_2029.jpg.html)
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: MrTim on November 11, 2015, 07:43:41 PM
http://www.midair-squadron.com/news/

See first article.
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: Smudger565 on November 11, 2015, 09:21:46 PM
That is where I saw & read it Tim

Thank you for help on this  ;) :D She will fill a small home and it's displays last year were very good  ;D ;D

PS
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: rainbola on November 12, 2015, 11:44:55 AM
Hmm....What  about a British owned Harrier or two?? I know the Matador visits Farnborough, and Art Nalls has a couple stateside but they still make the engines for these, and  there are a few around in various states of repair............fabulous in display. Got to be worth a thought? :)
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: DLee on November 13, 2015, 06:32:18 PM
That is where I saw & read it Tim

Thank you for help on this  ;) :D She will fill a small home and it's displays last year were very good  ;D ;D

PS

I saw XH134 at Dawlish two years ago and agree they can put on a great display, fingers crossed Midair can sort the paperwork issues and get her back on the circuit for 2016.
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: leslie on November 13, 2015, 07:38:05 PM
Mossie it is then....
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: planenut on November 13, 2015, 08:10:44 PM
Just seen the announcement in the newsletter, I am not too surprised and wish the whole project the best - with the involvement of the established Vulcan Club and Vulcan to the Sky Trust and teams, this should be a doddle, nothing complex this time.
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: Rushy on November 13, 2015, 08:15:07 PM
I have to say that I was hoping for a Mossie! :)
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: leslie on November 13, 2015, 08:20:36 PM
Doesn't really tickle my fancy enough to come out of retirement for, wonder how it all will pan out, will the Club be involved?
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: Vulcanatic on November 14, 2015, 01:32:01 AM
The Mosquito was an incredible aeroplane that made a huge contribution during WW2. A Mosquito or two aloft is well overdue.

Didn't someone allegedly in the know recently mention the new project shortly to be announced was 'Delta-inspired'. I'm not sure how the Mosquito fits that bill?!
(Apart from which it predates 'Delta' so I'm not sure how it can have been inspired by the Delta profile?)
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: dee on November 14, 2015, 08:01:34 AM
Good luck to them with this project,,
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: Buzz Lightyear2. on November 15, 2015, 06:46:10 PM
What about getting a couple of Lancasters in the air? plenty to go at, Duxford, East Kirby and Hendon. Just as beautiful as the Vulcan. just a thought.  :D
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: Vulcanatic on November 16, 2015, 02:17:23 AM
What about getting a couple of Lancasters in the air? plenty to go at, Duxford, East Kirby and Hendon. Just as beautiful as the Vulcan. just a thought.  :D

There are lots of fantastic aeroplanes of all eras, the Lancaster is an amazing icon.  No plane anywhere near as beautiful as VULCAN though! (In my humble opinion).
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: JeremyC on November 17, 2015, 09:19:18 AM
Much as I'm looking forward to seeing a Mosquito airborne again surely the trust's expertise is in more complex 'challenging'  aircraft.  As the lightning is, sadly if understandably, out I'd be rooting for either a Buccaneer or a Harrier.
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: Ollie Impus on November 17, 2015, 10:00:51 AM
Absolutely, to see a Mossie in our skies would be great - but a Harrier as well would get my vote - for its obvious display capabilities. Then again, isn't there a Victor around the place that's proven to be sort of.. flyable? Dammit, let's have all 3!
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: planenut on November 17, 2015, 10:12:07 AM
Once again, I provide a link to those discussions....... 
http://www.vulcantothesky.org/smf/index.php?topic=6069.msg67533#msg67533

Harrier for me, the aircraft type should have a history that the general public can relate to.
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: JeremyC on November 19, 2015, 10:44:21 AM
Once again, I provide a link to those discussions....... 
http://www.vulcantothesky.org/smf/index.php?topic=6069.msg67533#msg67533

Harrier for me, the aircraft type should have a history that the general public can relate to.

If the forum must have so many sections this is the inevitable consequence.
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: Keith lawes on December 02, 2015, 01:05:47 PM
How about this for a bonkers project:-

As I understand it an original Vulcan will never fly again primarily because of the outmoded technology of the electrical systems. The fly-by-wire stuff, electrical power management and all the other electrical bits and pieces. They were first generation, completely analogue, and completely unique. They presumably incorporate valves, relays, cloth insulated wires and lumps of bakelite! Maybe even (like the Harrier) lengths of bicycle chain. They are outmoded and will never be let in the air again.

However the airframe itself is, apart from being gorgeous, proven to be pretty bullet proof.

So how about you translate the old airframe drawings into a modern 3D model (Katia/Proe or whatever). A massive task with a massive cost. But can be costed pretty accurately. And as you do so look at modern fly by wire and electrical power management systems, airbus, boeing, whatever. Bound to be much smaller and more reliable than the bakelite ones. Can they be realistically fitted into the model?
And the engines. Are modern military engines a similar aspect ratio to the Olympus? Or can the airframe be tweaked?
Can a rough cost be estimated for the above. £100M? £500M? £5,000M??? The first might just be attainable over a lot of years, lets face it £22M was raised to keep XH558 in the air, so there is public will and crowdfunding there somehow.
And maybe think of some more radical concepts to save costs. No bomb doors perhaps? No ejector seats, after all you don't get them on any civil jet? Seats for paying passengers?? Have the cockpit cover 1 way glass, so looks the same from the outside but inside you can see out. Would guess there are plenty of billionaires who would pay v good money for a flight??
Of course what would result would just be a pastiche, but any vulcan is better than no vulcan at all.

Will have to go now. My attendants have just come to take me back to my padded cell.
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: Vulcanatic on December 02, 2015, 04:12:06 PM
Could you design & build a VULCAN facsimile which looks, sounds & handles like the real McCoy but which is inherently safer, stronger & future proofed, running on modern technology. Probably! Cost? My guess - approaching the cost of comprehensively restoring XH558, (?£200M+?).  The 'old techniques lost' argument is in my belief a smokescreen, if the money was there people could, and would, be trained up on lost SKILLS & technologies.

If someone showed you a vintage Rolex, you might be quite interested, if they told you it was made in Beijing last week your interest would probably wane.  Part of the allure with these old military planes is that they are the real McCoy, associated with specific conflicts or eras.  The history permeates their being and adds to them.

There are some quite good VULCAN replicas about, although they're unlikely to be carrying Billionaire passengers any time soon;
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/oV8h4OEFOsI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/4SGr41rmEw8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: Keith lawes on December 02, 2015, 04:34:42 PM
I'm sure you're right. The pastiche vulcan would have lost a lot of its appeal, especially to the real aircraft enthusiast.

But I think there is a huge body of vulcan fans out there who are not typical aircraft enthusiasts. They just love the aesthetics, the experience, the sight and sound. They are in general not interested in any other aeroplane. And they would be less upset by it not being the real deal.

Key to any credibility would be for it to a British project, to demonstrate British engineering prowess. Think that would claw some wow factor back. Hate to play the Union Jack card too heavily in any engineering project but in this case think it would be essential.

As you say a Bejing Rolex is not of much interest, but if it was made by British craftsmen....?

Anyhow bit of a pointless argument I guess. But fun to speculate....

P.S. Love the V models!!
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: CLIFFORD on December 08, 2015, 02:13:38 PM
just seen in flypast that XM573 is going to be restored at the AIR & SPACE MUSEUM IN NABRASKA.
any volunteers.
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: PaulH2015 on December 10, 2015, 11:02:30 AM
just seen in flypast that XM573 is going to be restored at the AIR & SPACE MUSEUM IN NABRASKA.
any volunteers.

Cosmetic only, I'd wager.
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: Rushy on December 10, 2015, 11:44:51 AM
After all those years outside I'd guess XM573 has not fared too well in Nebraska conditions.
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: Rick Steer on December 10, 2015, 01:51:46 PM
I read on Facebook that Midair Squadron has sadly gone into receivership.

Given the age of the jets matches that of our lovely Vulcan, and that there is already a project underway to bring a Mosquito to the UK skies at Biggin Hill, perhaps the club could focus on saving the Canberra & Hunters from Midair instead?
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: DLee on December 10, 2015, 05:35:58 PM
I read on Facebook that Midair Squadron has sadly gone into receivership

Not good, but fingers crossed a buyer can be found who will keep them in the UK and in flying condition.  I understand the Canberra had a major refurb a couple of years ago and still has an airworthiness cert, so maybe a good opportunity for VTTS?
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: scampton61 on December 10, 2015, 09:49:03 PM
The Canberra should certainly tick boxes with the VTS, it's not in the complex category so hopefully the engineering team wouldn't need the support of external agencies in the same way they had to accept with 558, it's a Cold War jet (with two spare engines), doesn't need restoring and looks/sounds good on the show circuit, what's not to like? DLee, afraid her permit to fly expired this year, there may be some work to get that renewed depending on whether all the anti-dets have continued to schedule since Midair stopped flying her.
Title: Re: The new 'Vulcan'
Post by: CLIFFORD on December 18, 2015, 02:31:04 PM
in the latest volume of JETS  Jan/Feb.  there is a full page article called.   WLL XH558 FLY AGAIN?.
it is about letting THE HISTOCIC AIRCRAFT ASS (HAA)  run the documents instead of or with the CAA.
it is a long article. the HAA are saying they have submitted the program to the CAA and are waiting a reply.
lets hope they don't have too long to wait ?