Vulcan To The Sky - Forums

XH558 Operations => Engineering => Topic started by: Mac on December 19, 2015, 07:54:49 PM

Title: Can she fly again....... yes according to this chap......
Post by: Mac on December 19, 2015, 07:54:49 PM
http://airsoc.com/articles/view/id/55dc9287924173ba4f66d24d/can-the-vulcan-fly-on
Title: Re: Can she fly again....... yes according to this chap......
Post by: Vulcanatic on December 20, 2015, 03:24:40 AM
Very interesting, it would be great if there is mileage in this but as the article is 4 months old and the sense of white flags being hoisted by the Trust has pervaded I'm not too hopeful, (but I'm always happy for another straw to clutch at!)  I'd recently had correspondence back from Kensington Palace that Prince Harry has weighed up the pro's & con's and decided he is unable to provide support or Patronage to help XH558 get back into the air, he's obviously a brave young man but not quite brave enough to put his name behind a £200M+ project of this nature.

I feel that the article is a bit misguided, however, making comparisons between a VULCAN & a B17, with engine failure in a B17 it's usually just a question of making that engine safe, (e.g. fuel stop), and fly on reduced power. In a VULCAN an engine failure is quite likely to be a catastrophic one, turbine blades disintegrating, flying off into the adjacent engine & wrecking that one as well, also causing fuel tank ruptures, control damage, fuselage / frame damage.
Title: Re: Can she fly again....... yes according to this chap......
Post by: scampton61 on December 20, 2015, 11:44:07 AM
he's obviously a brave young man but not quite brave enough to put his name behind a £200M+ project of this nature.

So because he doesn't share your obsession, or perhaps considers your plucked out of thin air fantasy figure of £200 million could be better spent, he's branded not brave enough? Not just the article that's misguided then.
Title: Re: Can she fly again....... yes according to this chap......
Post by: Vulcanatic on December 20, 2015, 02:57:55 PM
he's obviously a brave young man but not quite brave enough to put his name behind a £200M+ project of this nature.

So because he doesn't share your obsession, or perhaps considers your plucked out of thin air fantasy figure of £200 million could be better spent, he's branded not brave enough? Not just the article that's misguided then.

Me obsessed by VULCAN? Guilty as charged. (I think you'll find one or two others in these forums!)
Fantasy figure? True this isn't costed but it is, I feel, a realistic - even conservative guesstimate based upon information I've gleaned from other much more knowledgeable members in various posts in these forums, (I'm talking an extensive structural & mechanical refurbishment with all the re-skilling & re-tooling that would imply).

Could the money be better spent? That depends on what your definitions & priorities are; Education, Health-care, Veterans support, Social Housing, the Arts, etc. All worthy of proper funding but Heritage has got to come up in there somewhere in the ranks of priorities.

I think that 'The Spirit of Great Britain' has been a living, breathing Tribute to all those who served during the Cold War. Men who brought their families up on bases that they knew to be Soviet priority targets, men who were prepared to take to the air at the drop of a hat, knowing what grim task they were entrusted with & knowing that all they would have to return to was an irradiated wasteland. XH558 also served as a high-profile tangible Memorial to the handful of men who's lives were lost to the V-bomber project either during development or active service.  How do you set a value on this?  I'm damned if I know!

That £200M+ is swallowed up several times over every year in Governmental waste such as abortive IT projects that never see the light of day.

Let me be clear here, my initial post was not intended to be disrespectful, as I've said Prince Harry is a brave individual as he has shown in front-line service, (as brave as any person who puts themselves in harm's way in defence of the realm & their fellow countrymen).  It would have taken a particular type of courage to put one's efforts & reputation behind such a massive long-term undertaking, the type of bravery that Dr Pleming showed in throwing himself behind the original daunting task. This would merely mark the Prince out as a pragmatist.

It's obvious that we all have different priorities.

Have a nice Christmas!
Title: Re: Can she fly again....... yes according to this chap......
Post by: scampton61 on December 20, 2015, 03:32:17 PM
Perhaps Santa will be good enough to bring you a copy of the XH558 Farewell to Flight book, then you might begin to realise why lecturing me on what she represents, and what my priorities are, is so patronising and presumptive.
Title: Re: Can she fly again....... yes according to this chap......
Post by: Vulcanatic on December 21, 2015, 02:32:54 AM
Perhaps Santa will be good enough to bring you a copy of the XH558 Farewell to Flight book, then you might begin to realise why lecturing me on what she represents, and what my priorities are, is so patronising and presumptive.

Sad that someone has seen fit to take down my earlier response, presumably under the premise I've used the 'b*m' word.
I'll be sure to pick up a copy of your Farewell to Flight pamphlet sometime.
Seeing as you've virtually been screaming in your subtext "Don't you know who I am!" I believe I do now know who you are.

I do find it somewhat ironic that someone organising & presumably leading courses in subjects such as coaching, mentoring, dealing with conflict, communication skills, etc. feels it acceptable to act in such a hectoring & boorish manner.

Anyway, I'm sure that one of your protectors will take this post down soon enough, (if they take your posts down at the same time then I'll have nothing to complain about).
Title: Re: Can she fly again....... yes according to this chap......
Post by: scampton61 on December 21, 2015, 09:44:36 AM
I have nothing to do with any of the things you list, so you obviously don't have a clue who I am, but I can't teach you anything about hectoring, boorish or disrespectful behaviour, you're managing very well all by yourself.
Title: Re: Can she fly again....... yes according to this chap......
Post by: Vulcanatic on December 21, 2015, 10:37:15 AM
I have nothing to do with any of the things you list, so you obviously don't have a clue who I am, but I can't teach you anything about hectoring, boorish or disrespectful behaviour, you're managing very well all by yourself.

Re. your "Don't you know who I am" rants, obviously then I do not, (nor do I much care).  Unlike yourself, I didn't pick this fight!
Title: Re: Can she fly again....... yes according to this chap......
Post by: Sad Sam on December 21, 2015, 11:06:04 AM
Here is a top tip for you.

Click on a posters profile. 

If it only has a join date it is probably because they have been here for a while and their profile has been through several re-incarnations and the original details have been lost.

I asked the moderator to remove your earlier post (yes specifically because you decided to abuse Mark online)

You say you are a Vulcan fanatic but you only managed to join a forum dedicated to the aircraft ten days before the aircraft was grounded...

£200m?  You really don't have a clue.  This would be a paperwork exercise, not a replica build from scratch.

Have a nice day.
Title: Re: Can she fly again....... yes according to this chap......
Post by: Vulcanatic on December 21, 2015, 11:32:23 AM
Here is a top tip for you.

Click on a posters profile. 

If it only has a join date it is probably because they have been here for a while and their profile has been through several re-incarnations and the original details have been lost.

I asked the moderator to remove your earlier post (yes specifically because you decided to abuse Mark online)

You say you are a Vulcan fanatic but you only managed to join a forum dedicated to the aircraft ten days before the aircraft was grounded...

£200m?  You really don't have a clue.  This would be a paperwork exercise, not a replica build from scratch.

Have a nice day.

It seems that the Trolls have control of this asylum!
Title: Re: Can she fly again....... yes according to this chap......
Post by: PaulH2015 on December 21, 2015, 11:40:44 AM
"I asked the moderator to remove your earlier post (yes specifically because you decided to abuse Mark online)"

On that basis most of the posts in this thread should be deleted.  Sad XH558 had to be retired, even sadder with threads like this.
Title: Re: Can she fly again....... yes according to this chap......
Post by: brains_mt on December 21, 2015, 03:59:12 PM
This article is bound to cause some controversy and because we are ALL rather keen and protective of our Vulcan it is bound to be something discussed on here. I have used the word discussed here not argued about.

Almost everything that the Trust and Club have done that has needed graphic design has been done by Mark (Scampton) and every single thing has been brilliantly designed from the Cook book and all the Trust books to the Club tee shirts. I am only adding this as Mark has never pushed himself forward as "do you know who I am" but it would be wrong to question his dedication. From us immense gratitude for all his hard work is due.

Can we play nicely now please? As we don't know much about this article and why it has been publish now, it may be best to wait to see if there is any more to come. I myself feel sceptical about it. In case my dedication (as Club Co-Chair) is called in to question, I would love to see 558 flying but I am also pragmatic and practical about it so doubt it will ever happen.

Keep it nice or we will close and delete the thread.

Happy Christmas all ;D



Title: Re: Can she fly again....... yes according to this chap......
Post by: Keith lawes on December 21, 2015, 04:30:53 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-PIckHrZ0o
Title: Re: Can she fly again....... yes according to this chap......
Post by: JeremyC on December 21, 2015, 04:45:50 PM
I'd desperately sad the Vulcan isn't flying any more (esp. as my three attempts to see it this year all failed) but I don't see how shifting the paperwork from one org. to another changes anything.

No engines and a structure that is too complicated for anybody to say it's safe.  Having seen a Hunter fly in to the ground this year I'm in no hurry to repeat the experience with an even bigger package.

That said, playing the "do you know who I am" card is always a mistake, better to walk away and retain your dignity.
Title: Re: Can she fly again....... yes according to this chap......
Post by: cat29457 on December 21, 2015, 06:58:04 PM
The latest update from the Air Accident Investigation regarding the Shoreham Hawker Hunter crash has released an interim statement giving seven recommendations regarding vintage military jets so XH558 did retire at the right time!
Title: Re: Can she fly again....... yes according to this chap......
Post by: Vulcanatic on December 22, 2015, 01:50:29 AM
The latest update from the Air Accident Investigation regarding the Shoreham Hawker Hunter crash has released an interim statement giving seven recommendations regarding vintage military jets so XH558 did retire at the right time!

Well spotted, the download is here;
https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/5677d6bfed915d144f000000/S4-2015_G-BXFI.pdf (https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/5677d6bfed915d144f000000/S4-2015_G-BXFI.pdf)

As pointed out, these are preliminary recommendations but this certainly would not have made life any easier for those tasked with keeping XH558 flying!

The recommendations perhaps hint at why the Pilot didn't eject? (Ejector mechanism cartridges were out of date so perhaps he tried to eject but was unable?)

Confusion appears to permeate many aspects of this plane's recent history, servicing, certification, etc. In particular there seems to be confusion about whether the Hunter was in fact 'legal' to fly.

I'm guessing there will be lots of interesting revelations to come in 2016.

I sense the impending sound of a few posteriors being kicked.
Title: Re: Can she fly again....... yes according to this chap......
Post by: JeremyC on December 22, 2015, 09:22:02 AM
My understanding (and perhaps some of those with hands-on experience can chip in) is that the Vulcan is, structurally, an order of magnitude more complicated that something like a Meteor, Vampire, Hunter or Canberra?  Mini vs. mk2 Jag.
Title: Re: Can she fly again....... yes according to this chap......
Post by: Keith lawes on December 22, 2015, 01:42:58 PM
Very interesting AAIB report. Bit confusing but seems to make two points:-
1/ Components to maintain ejector seats in civilian hands are no longer available.
2/ Swept wing aircraft are not currently allowed to fly without correctly maintained and operational ejector seats.

To quote:-

"In February 2015 the ejection seat manufacturer ceased to provide technical support
or replacement parts for ejection seats fitted to aircraft which no longer operate in their
original military role. Ejection seats installed in civil-operated ex-military aircraft fall into
this category and replacement cartridges manufactured by the original manufacturer are no
longer available. As a result, the ejection seat manufacturer considers that such ejection
seats should be deactivated to prevent the risk of inadvertent operation. This is contrary to
the current CAP 632 requirement for ejection seats in swept-wing aircraft to be operated in
a fully operational and armed condition. "

So something has to give or its the end of privately operated swept wing jets in this country?
Title: Re: Can she fly again....... yes according to this chap......
Post by: PaulH2015 on December 22, 2015, 02:18:07 PM
In terms of Shoreham all rather by-the-by.  An earlier report said the pilot formed the top of the loop at far too low an altitude to complete the manouvere and exit at the same height he started at - 'why?' is the big question.