Vulcan To The Sky - Forums

Vulcan To The Sky => Ways To Raise Funding => Topic started by: Paramania on September 30, 2017, 10:22:36 PM

Title: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: Paramania on September 30, 2017, 10:22:36 PM
Let's keep this positive, what do you think of the new plans - and do you have any suggestions to improve.  I'm sure that the Trust people still read this forum.  One rule:

- Don't ask questions that are answered in the documents.

Chocks out, GO!

http://planning.doncaster.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=externalDocuments&keyVal=OW61G9FXJRD00

Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: wcg on October 28, 2017, 03:06:56 PM
I'm back agin !  ;D

For those of you out there who don't frequent the UKAR forum, you may be unaware that some objections to the plans have been made....by DSRHA's owners/operators !

As I posted on UKAR, these are the objections that I could find :
Quote
    This hangar does not penetrate the OLS surface at any point.
    It is in direct line of sight for radar which will require a detail technical assessment for the impact on line of sight.
    For construction a Crane authorisation Form (CAF) will be required prior to any works.
    Wind modelling may also be requires by to proximity of hangar to the runway threshold
    SPV installation will require modelling with panels ensuring no glare is experienced in line with FAA / ICAO requirements with the developer using a SGHAT tool specifically and reference its results as this was developed by the FAA and Sandia National Laboratories as a standard and approved methodology for assessing potential impacts on aviation interests.
    The airport will need certified signed documented testimonials, a safety case and / or risk assessment that the glare will be at safe levels and that the type of SPV panel to be used will have a reduced glare to minimise the risk to aircraft unlike other standard residential and commercial reflective surfaces for aircraft circling the ATZ or approaching from the north.



    1. A line of sight survey must be conducted with a review of the impacts on DSA primary radar, which must be submitted to the airport and evaluated prior to any construction taking place.
    2. Any high reach equipment over 10m in height above ground must be approved by the airport authority before its use. Forms can be found at http://dsa.aero/ops-information/useful- ... -documents
    3. Any SPV installed will require modelling with panels ensuring no glint or glare is experienced in line with FAA / ICAO requirements with the developer using a SGHAT tool specifically and references its results as this was developed by the FAA and Sandia National Laboratories as a standard and approved methodology for assessing potential impacts on aviation interests. The airport will need certified signed documented testimonials, a safety case and / or risk assessment that the glint or glare will be at safe levels and that the type of SPV panels to be used will have a reduced glint / glare to minimise the risk to aircraft unlike other standard residential and commercial reflective surfaces for aircraft circling the ATZ or approaching from the north.
    4. Detail to ensure that no part of the build will increase any wild life activities within the aerodrome boundary by ensuring the structure does not increase / encourage roosting or nesting.
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: sickbag_andy on October 28, 2017, 04:30:04 PM
I did notice the comments on UKAR Clive.

I don't think any of these are show stoppers, it will probably end up with approval with the points raised listed as conditions to be met before construction commences, that is quite common. I has a similar situation a several years ago when I designed a golf course, it was passed on appeal but with various conditions placed on the approval all that had to be met to the satisfaction of the authority before construction could commence.

the bigger impact will more likely be on cost - all the investigation will cost money, some of it is specialist work so the provider is in an advantageous situation and any changes to the design are likely to push the cost up. What effect that will have on any sponsor for the construction I don't know but it may commit them to a higher budget than they expected. The cost of the investigations and reports etc may need to be borne by the Trust - bang goes some of the name plaque scheme monies earlier than expected!
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: wcg on October 28, 2017, 05:03:15 PM
As some have commented on UKAR, though, if discussions took place with the airport's owners before the plans were submitted, why weren't these points raised at the time ?
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: sickbag_andy on October 28, 2017, 05:14:47 PM
as the airport is probably the no.1 key player then yes it would have been logical to hold discussions AND a competent consultant should be fully aware of these sorts of issues, they must be pretty standard for airport works.

re the interference with radar signals, that should have been an obvious one to check. when I was resident engineer on the new Southend sewage works in the late 1990s we had to sent radio signals between the Southend site and Rochford sewage works which was close to the approach and the line of signals was almost parallel to it so that was the first thing I raised with the designer, he was an in house guy and a sewage treatment rather than aviation works expert and wasn't aware of potential issues but I suppose it was only my interest in aviation made me aware of it but in this instance it's on an airport site so really should be looking at potential hazards to the site owner. I am surprised if it wasn't discussed up front (and as the airport have raised it now it seems it wasn't).
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: dee on October 29, 2017, 08:34:40 AM
Pppfffftttttttttttt >:D
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: sickbag_andy on October 29, 2017, 09:06:57 AM
Or on the other hand the Trust or their representative may have decided to submit without the investigations with the attitude thatit may or may not be of a concern to the airport andif not and the airport did not ask for them then they could have spent money on a report which was unnecessary.

Remember these are not objections as such, just requests for information or clarification where they (the airport) feel more info is needed. That really isnt that unusual in planning applications and is a way of avoiding unnecessary work
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: brains_mt on October 30, 2017, 06:15:47 PM
The subject of radio waves and disturbance from buildings etc is an odd one. There are two wind turbines at East Midlands Airport which have been working there for a number of years. However there are two turbines in Spondon some miles away and these tow have only just started to work as they had been found to cause problems at EMA with the aircraft. Its taken years for this to be sorted out! ::)
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: sickbag_andy on November 11, 2017, 08:51:34 AM
I visited the new Bristol Aerospace museum on Thursday, it's in 2 parts with most of the exhibits in the old WW.1 hangars and Concorde in a brand new purpose built building which is excellent - that would act as a good 'blueprint' for the Trust to follow. I posted pics of it here: http://www.vulcantothesky.org/smf/index.php?topic=7893.msg81883#new

or if you're not logged in my pics are in this Flickr album: https://www.flickr.com/photos/125470545@N07/albums/72157690452144886

It's got plenty of viewing space at both ground and higher level with static exhibitions as well but fairly 'functional' construction. The quoted price for the whole museum is £19 million but I can't find a cost for the new building element as a comparison.
For the Trust to produce something similar that will be the hardest part -funding it.
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: minty4371 on December 21, 2017, 07:45:27 PM
Permission has been GRANTED today for the hangar.
http://planning.doncaster.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=OW61G9FXJRD00
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: dee on December 21, 2017, 08:15:24 PM
Lovley Address she now recides under!!
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: jakspeed on December 21, 2017, 09:55:28 PM
Won’t be long before the begging bowls are out again - ‘oh joy, we have the planning for the Hanger now give us yer money so we can build it!!!’
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: ADI on December 21, 2017, 10:33:57 PM
the plans show the swift to be living outside the new hangar  :o  had lots of begging emails this last week,


hope the whole thing works out for the aircrafts sake
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: StAthan lecky on December 21, 2017, 10:59:14 PM
Won’t be long before the begging bowls are out again - ‘oh joy, we have the planning for the Hanger now give us yer money so we can build it!!!’

now give us yer money so we can build it!!!’ I think you got that bit wrongJax ! it should read "now give us yer money so we can squander it "!!!’ >:(

Mike
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: StAthan lecky on December 21, 2017, 11:05:15 PM
Perhaps the Trust would like to take a leaf out of "The Peoples Mosquito" news letter that has just been published and I quote


A key pillar of our existence is to be honest to the public on funds raised and monies allocated.


The TPM board remain fully committed to this policy of open and transparent reporting of all our activities, and always willing to answer any question on our accounts.

I live in hope ::)

Mike
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: ADI on December 22, 2017, 10:36:17 PM
the trust are only interested in money. pitty they don't read there forum to see the supporters concerns are, it might be worth a few more quid for them  >:(
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: minty4371 on December 23, 2017, 10:29:13 AM
This from the newsletter.
"Now that planning permission has been secured, exciting but challenging developments are ahead as we raise the financial backing for the hangar development, but as ever, with the support of an enthusiastic volunteer and supporter base, we remain most positive. We are presently planning 2018 and beyond in the expectation of a very bright future for aviation heritage and engineering inspiration."
https://mxm.mxmfb.com/rsps/m/eGhtN-5W9XiCq03l86TFx8vqABj-DIm8QstU6jBSQIU

Link to newspaper article.
https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/news/green-light-for-vulcan-bomber-tourist-attraction-proposals-near-doncaster-airport-1-8923625
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: sickbag_andy on December 24, 2017, 09:01:14 AM
A question - do the Trust own the site of the proposed hangar or do Doncaster airport own it? and as a follow on from that is that planning permission owned by the site owner or the tenant?

If it's the owner, what's to stop them developing the hangar themselves rather than the Trust albeit funded by a knight in shining armour stuffed with wads of readies? Surely the airport will see that planning approval as a long term asset for expansion and if the Trust don't get their sponsor fairly quickly will the airport say ' you've had enough time and can't demonstrate any ability to build this hangar' and take the development on themselves with no offer to the Trust of medium term use?

Could it be that the airport supported this because they saw an opportunity to get planning approval where the sentimental appeal of the Vulcan being housed was a help in swaying the planners whereas it would have been more difficult without in the knowledge that at best after 10 years the Trust would vacate, the owner would be paying rent to the airport and bringing in business and at worst if the Trust fails then they have a site with approval for development that they can offer on the open market without the attached strings of the Trust, and of course that approval all gained at someone else's cost?
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: minty4371 on January 12, 2018, 07:09:34 PM
http://www.vulcantothesky.org/uploads/documents/Planning%20Success%20Press%20Release%20Approved%2012th%20January%2018.pdf
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: PaulH2015 on January 13, 2018, 03:37:18 PM
So is this The Vulcan Aviation Academy and Heritage Centre of 2015?  ETNA?  Or the interim hanger of 2017?

My understanding with the interim is that it would be funded by the developers and leased by the trust.  This seems to be dependant on the Trust raining £3M.
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: Sad Sam on January 13, 2018, 08:28:26 PM
Interesting article...

So we finally know the names of the "Specialist Consultants" who have carried out the work for the trust (which we were initially told was carried out last year)  Not being picky but looking at the websites of those companies there is no mention of any aviation related projects.  I know there is not a lot of development going on in the industry at the moment but surely the trust could have tied in with someone with experience in this field.  Still they have built lots of shops and student accommodation so that should be ok.

Nice to see that Dave Dixon of the RG group appreciates the appeal 558 had across the country - wonder if the trust will try and re-engage with that level of support (now they need to raise £3m)...

On the subject of £3million - where did the extra £200k come from as I'm sure in the summer the cost was £280k (I guess that will be the wage bill for the next year)

Nice to know the well tested business plan will enable the new building to open in the spring of 2019 (as opposed to spring 2018 as promised in February 2017)  There may well be over 6 million people living within one hour of driving but how many of them will want to go to a party in a sewage farm?

I think the trusts best bet is if one of their long term supporters decides they have put so much in so far they may as well pay for a permanent home for 558.  They may get lucky and get a few big legacies come in - that should help with the wage bill at least.

Once the hangar is built they can get on with the plan to get 163 back in the air (but from experience they are more likely to start planning a series of parties and benefit concerts) probably won't bother though as there is no mention of 163 apart from a vague mention of utilizing examples of Britain’s valuable aeronautical and engineering achievements.

I know it's only an artists impression (which I first saw on a laptop in hangar 3 a year ago - have they no more up to date stuff?) but where do they intend to park 163 and the Swift?  Still no sign of the stores or workshops.

Yes I'm bitter.  It seems to me that nothing had been done until we were all laid off - and what has been done has occurred at a snails pace.  The supporters have been kept in the dark and only now is there any information coming to light.  I guess the next thing will be the appeal for funds (bet there will be no threat to lay off the remaining staff unless they can raise the funds)  Think I need to contact the bank to increase my monthly standing order...

Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: ascot5046 on January 17, 2018, 10:26:43 PM
Anyone know if Carillion were involved?
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: Sad Sam on January 18, 2018, 09:23:55 PM
 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: methley on February 28, 2018, 02:33:46 PM
Just mooching around on the VTTS site and came across this image of the original "academy".  I wondered where it may have been built, then found this view on Google Maps.  XH558 is currently on the tarmac at the bottom centre of the Google Maps image.  New hanger plans are for the pad behind the fence bottom right.

(http://www.disco3.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/14983/normal_aviation-academy-view2.jpg)

(http://www.disco3.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/14983/normal_Capture.jpg)

http://www.vulcantothesky.org/history/post-flight.html
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: minty4371 on February 28, 2018, 08:42:50 PM
Thank you Methley.
I hadn't seen these images before.
I like the look of this hangar.
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: dee on March 01, 2018, 08:14:30 AM
Just Pie in the sky!!!! >:D
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: leslie on March 08, 2018, 03:37:23 PM
I'm looking forward to working with the development team on the new hangar #excitingtimes
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: ADI on March 08, 2018, 11:11:37 PM
Ooh great do you know when work starts?
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: dee on March 09, 2018, 08:12:33 AM
Hmmm when does work start!?
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: jakspeed on March 09, 2018, 11:45:08 AM
I'm looking forward to working with the development team on the new hangar #excitingtimes

Oooooooo!!! They must have the funding secured then - please tell us more!!
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: minty4371 on March 09, 2018, 11:51:04 AM
I'm looking forward to working with the development team on the new hangar #excitingtimes
Sorry if my reply is wrong, but I'll wait until I read about it from someone official.
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: scampton61 on March 10, 2018, 04:16:32 PM
Just Pie in the sky!!!! >:D

Hope you've got a good appetite for eating your words  >:D
Title: Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
Post by: dee on March 10, 2018, 04:29:26 PM
I have a damn good appetite let me tell ya!! ::)