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Messages - sickbag_andy

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Ways To Raise Funding / Re: Funding the new hangar - how?
« on: December 22, 2017, 08:17:49 AM »
Permission has been GRANTED today for the hangar.

I think that was to be expected so does it change the situation much?

Will a site with planning permission be any more attractive to a prospective investor?  - possibly but also possibly a predatory one who foresees the Trust not having the funds for lease costs before very long and thus gains a complete hangar in a fairly short space of time.

and Richard Clarke in that statement quoted by Minty on October 12th said(re-quoting):
"Vulcan to the Sky Trust spokesman Richard Clarke said the scheme would not be able to move forwards until an investor was in place, and the trust was currently actively looking for that investor.

The trust is also currently raising funds from the public towards the costs.

He said: "We would like to think when planning permission comes forward we could move forward as soon as possible. That is the aspiration and we wanted to start the ball rolling by putting the planning application in..

"We would like to be looking at starting next year, but it is difficult to put a date on it.."

so nothing happens before
1: they find an investor, - that's apparently not proving easy so no movement on that front for now?

2:currently raising funds from the public towards costs - expect a massive campaign soon - 'we need your money NOW or 558 will be stuck outside for years' and an unstated aim 'more importantly we have salaries to pay'

3: planning permission is now granted so a bit like Brexit the clock is ticking. Planning approvals normally have a time limit before commencement of 5 years so maybe it would actually have been better to wait until they have an investor rather than watching the clock tick down and after 5 years with no investor the money spent on the application will be wasted.
They could of course turn the first sod (which sod would you prefer?) and claim it's started. Just imagine the PR opportunity there, great fanfare and sell tickets to come and watch that sod turning at £200 a time while the breeze wafts across the sewage works bringing that sweet smell of success with it while 558 coughs her guts up in the background! And afterwards leave it until the money materialises and the 'cum volare porcos' aerobatic team perform that inaugural display over the new hangar!

4: an aspiration but for 2018 to be realistic they should have had an investor on board by now, the planning (project planning that is), detailed design and contracts between trust and investor have to be finalised and then find a suitable contractor to build it, and I don't think this guy would be suitable:
so apart from having permission to build they really aren't that much further forward.

5: i.e.  the unstated 5: in the meantime they need to find an even more generous investor for ETNA and raise their own funds for that so how is that progressing, if at all?

I'm afraid I just can't be optomistic re 558 being under permanent fixed cover by January 1st 2019 and it's all a great shame, a case of not cutting one's coat according to one's cloth unfortunately.
So sad and may I suggest naive as well.

Engineering / Re: So that's it then?
« on: December 08, 2017, 05:37:18 PM »

Found out how to access 'Founding Guardians'.
On the home page click 'Shop in Store'.
Click 'Shop Here'.
'Founding Guardians' is on the right side of 'clothing size guide'.
Very small lettering!

well I tried but couldn't find it but thanks for trying (I've actually tried 3 times!). I got as far as clothing eventually but it's not much more that a crappy copy of amazon nowadays. I did consider buying a beanie hat to put on 558's cockpit during the cold winter months but I doubt they could even deliver it now even if they had the right size although I couldn't find the size guide anyway.

thanks for taking the time to tell me though.

Also thanks to Clive for the other link, another that I would never have found (for more obvious reasons). Why on earth isn't there a search function or have I missed that as well. It's all a bit of a shambles and you have to wonder how they can sell anything with this fiasco?

Engineering / Re: So that's it then?
« on: December 08, 2017, 07:31:39 AM »
Questions asked on UKAR......
What benefits ( if any ) do those who are 'Founding Guardians' get for their membership fee ?
Also, is the scheme which was introduced ( or going to be introduced ? ) for new 'Guardians' still going ?

Clive, I've just had a look at the trusts site and cannot find anything about guardians schemes anywhere, not even on the how to help & donate pages. It doesn't help that there's no apparent search facility.

I know the founding guardians scheme was only for ex club members and the chance to transfer over has now gone but thought there might have been something there to tell them how to re-new and maybe acknowledge their part (via the club)in getting and keeping 558 in the air. The guardians scheme was for non ex-club members and thus the current membership scheme so I would have expected that to be fairly prominent but it all just seems to be about asking for donations and standing orders or tat from the shop

This might me better in a separate topic really  as it's going away from the original subject but lets see what surfaces first for now

Engineering / Re: So that's it then?
« on: December 01, 2017, 10:27:49 PM »
well at least the initials don't have to be changed: Vulcan To The Snow.

it is a great shame and can only hope (and it is only a hope I fear) that the hangar gets approved and they find a benefactor to pay for it.

I don't know what the outgoings are now but I do hope that the majority of the money raised by the names under the wing appeal has been put aside for good use to benefit the aircraft rather than all being wasted on needless wages. I really can't understand why they need all the remaining 'employees' who effectively are just backroom and admin staff rather than directly looking after the aircraft. Most if not all similar organisations get along well by using volunteers at all levels of their management structure but there again most aren't on operational airports, maybe that illustrates why Doncaster was only right whilst she was flying.

i'm very disillusioned by the whole debacle

Ways To Raise Funding / Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
« on: November 11, 2017, 08:51:34 AM »
I visited the new Bristol Aerospace museum on Thursday, it's in 2 parts with most of the exhibits in the old WW.1 hangars and Concorde in a brand new purpose built building which is excellent - that would act as a good 'blueprint' for the Trust to follow. I posted pics of it here:

or if you're not logged in my pics are in this Flickr album:

It's got plenty of viewing space at both ground and higher level with static exhibitions as well but fairly 'functional' construction. The quoted price for the whole museum is £19 million but I can't find a cost for the new building element as a comparison.
For the Trust to produce something similar that will be the hardest part -funding it.

Ways To Raise Funding / Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
« on: October 29, 2017, 09:06:57 AM »
Or on the other hand the Trust or their representative may have decided to submit without the investigations with the attitude thatit may or may not be of a concern to the airport andif not and the airport did not ask for them then they could have spent money on a report which was unnecessary.

Remember these are not objections as such, just requests for information or clarification where they (the airport) feel more info is needed. That really isnt that unusual in planning applications and is a way of avoiding unnecessary work

Ways To Raise Funding / Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
« on: October 28, 2017, 05:14:47 PM »
as the airport is probably the no.1 key player then yes it would have been logical to hold discussions AND a competent consultant should be fully aware of these sorts of issues, they must be pretty standard for airport works.

re the interference with radar signals, that should have been an obvious one to check. when I was resident engineer on the new Southend sewage works in the late 1990s we had to sent radio signals between the Southend site and Rochford sewage works which was close to the approach and the line of signals was almost parallel to it so that was the first thing I raised with the designer, he was an in house guy and a sewage treatment rather than aviation works expert and wasn't aware of potential issues but I suppose it was only my interest in aviation made me aware of it but in this instance it's on an airport site so really should be looking at potential hazards to the site owner. I am surprised if it wasn't discussed up front (and as the airport have raised it now it seems it wasn't).

Ways To Raise Funding / Re: Comments on the new hangar plans!
« on: October 28, 2017, 04:30:04 PM »
I did notice the comments on UKAR Clive.

I don't think any of these are show stoppers, it will probably end up with approval with the points raised listed as conditions to be met before construction commences, that is quite common. I has a similar situation a several years ago when I designed a golf course, it was passed on appeal but with various conditions placed on the approval all that had to be met to the satisfaction of the authority before construction could commence.

the bigger impact will more likely be on cost - all the investigation will cost money, some of it is specialist work so the provider is in an advantageous situation and any changes to the design are likely to push the cost up. What effect that will have on any sponsor for the construction I don't know but it may commit them to a higher budget than they expected. The cost of the investigations and reports etc may need to be borne by the Trust - bang goes some of the name plaque scheme monies earlier than expected!

Ways To Raise Funding / Re: Funding the new hangar - how?
« on: October 14, 2017, 07:38:52 AM »
Surely the money they have aquired thro the latest Names under the wing scheme will go towards the new Hangar??!!! ::) ::)

Wouldn't have thought so unless its for planning or lease costs. If the hangar is to be leased from an investor the would be no point in contributing to the construction costs

Ways To Raise Funding / Re: Funding the new hangar - how?
« on: September 25, 2017, 07:59:14 AM »
It reads like another 'Jam Tomorrow' spiel, or more specifically Jam in 2018 as long as you give us a barrowload of cash now.

As far as moving XH558 if this was a better option, is there a low loader out there with the capability of carrying the Vulcan whole?
(Bridges & flyovers aside!)

more like Jam in 2019 really when you look at the total timescale.

I don't think anything could move her whole - too heavy for the airlander and that's about all that could cope with the wingspan. That's why I feel we might have to resign ourselves to her being static only in the medium term if the hangar doesn't happen.

Ways To Raise Funding / Re: Funding the new hangar - how?
« on: September 23, 2017, 05:01:06 PM »
.........and even if they somehow get the money for the hangar where's the plan B if the funding for ETNA isn't forthcoming?

The initial hangar is comparatively easy as the investor has a usable asset at the end of it. ETNA will be purpose built so where's the commercial return even if they can build it?

Then of course if there is no sign of the funding for ETNA a year or three down the line the airport might offer the designated site to somebody else for commercial use and 558 will be put out to grass in the open, assuming of course there is still a space available somewhere by that time - that could be when the real crunch comes (not literally I hope!).

Ways To Raise Funding / Funding the new hangar - how?
« on: September 23, 2017, 08:48:38 AM »
2 extracts from this week's newsletter (

1: From Dr. Pleming's statement:
The work done on the design of the new hangar also generated an estimate for the total cost of construction and fit-out – some £2.8million, including start-up working capital. Unlike many other charities, the Trust does not have an endowment or capital reserves, so the plan is to find an investor or consortium to fund the build, with the added attraction of contributing to the development of the Airport.

In parallel with the planning activity, a Business Plan for the Heritage Hangar has been created, based on the successful business model in Hangar 3 of visitor tours, events, merchandising and catering. This Business Plan has been to subject of extensive review and will continue to be updated, as we need it to be as robust as possible. The Business Plan is aimed at demonstrating that an investor funding the construction of the new Heritage Hangar will be assured of an acceptable return on an investment.

We are already talking to prospective investors, and expect to gain valuable feedback on optimising the attractiveness of our proposition over coming weeks. As with any charity embarking on a new direction, we are drawing on advice from various quarters, especially from those who have experience of similar projects.  It’s difficult to be definite on timescales, but we very much hope to open for business in the new Heritage Hangar in 2018. If there is anyone reading this who believes they have the relevant experience to help, please contact me

and 2: from the Q&A section of the same (answers by Trustee Dr. Stephen Liddle)
At the moment, the Trust is working with the airport to deliver a new home for XH558 where she will be permanently under cover and accessible, much like she was in H3. The aircraft are currently outside, which given that they will be maintained, is acceptable for the short time proposed. The design for the hangar is complete and we anticipate planning permission to be achieved in the coming months. At the same time, the Trust is very actively pursuing the funding required to complete the project. The model proposed would see the hangar constructed and then leased to us for a period of at least ten years. There is a clear business case for this proposal, in that the developer would have a valuable commercial building on the site of a growing airport at the end. By that time, the Trust would expect to move to the final phase of the Etna project, in a new building that will be planned at the airport

The construction of the new hangar will take about one year in total. The Trust is confident from its experience of H3 that the costs of the lease can be met from the attraction itself.

I am concerned!
Back in or around early 2015 I posed a question about the funding and building of ETNA and the reply was that it was planned by acquiring funds was at an early stage with near to nothing actually raised - it was okay being optomistic abut was that being realistic? - it appears no.

Now we see a planning submission for a smaller establishment with promises that it will be ready by 2018, but once again the Trust is looking for investors so really it's deja-vu but the 'vu' is somewhat smaller. So that 2018 date, although it's planned has little or nothing in hard cash to make it happen at this stage. The submission has only just been presented so planning permission is probably going to take 2 months IF it's straight forward with no objections (i.e. end of November at the earliest), then assuming the funds are there to build it by then a contract has to be awarded - probably at least another 2 months (based on how long contract awards used to take in my days of civil engineering) so that's end of January. The newsletter/update says 12 month construction period so that immediately takes it with a sensible optomistic approach to end of January 2019. So how has 2018 been proposed?

The Trust is talking to prospective investors over the coming weeks - surely that should have been done before now, IF planning permission is granted (and I personally think it will be) albeit with a delayed start even if funding is in place then the funds need to be in place soon to avoid a year's delay. Why? those pesky newts:
from the government website (they have an extensive list of dos and donts re newts):
trap between mid-February and mid-June to remove breeding adults
remove vegetation that supports eggs

so it will be end of June before construction can actually start so unless that 12 month period includes the 4 months to remove the newts then it will be mid June 2019 before the hangar is completed.

The plan relies on an investor accepting a reasonable return for 10 years before ETNA is ready - so now it's 10 years for ETNA, can the Trust really predict 10 years ahead with any confidence? Supposing they get the investor for this hangar but after 10 years they are 'out on their ear' with no ETNA then it will have just gone  a 10 year full circle albeit with much higher costs. It seems that after almost 3 years since my question there is still no investor coming forward even for something which will have commercial benefit in both the short and long term for that investor or more importantly for ETNA - isn't this just delaying the inevitable?
 In 10 years time most of us who remember the Vulcan will either be dead, in nursing homes or (if young enough) will be watching other aircraft rather than one that has been generally stuck in a hangar forgotten by the many and only seen running by the rich few, in short I don't think the funding or the enthusiasm from the public will be there.

Previously I said I believed Doncaster was the right place during the flying phase but once flying finished then a commercial base was risky. There have been good reasons put forward for not going to Bruntingthorpe or Elvington and the commercial aspect applies certainly to the former but to try to create a one aircraft museum from nothing was over optomisitc I'm afraid. 558 should have gone to an existing collection even if it were only able to fast taxi in the short to medium term, lets face it , there hasn't been much taxiing to date and that was seen as a big carrot for being preserved at Doncaster, had she been somewhere in an existing collection where taxi runs could have gone on from the start at modest cost (not with the constraints of a commercial civil airport) then the interest at least during the short/medium term would have been greater and the chance of raising money to fund some sort of hangar (if one wasn't already available) would have been far greater.

We have to accept that moving 558 now is unrealistic unless she is dismantled and then reassembled as a static exhibit but if  the new hangar can't be funded (and it appears difficult) then maybe that is the best option as at least she can be back in some sort of public eye. I hope the funds materialse but to be honest to me the signs are not optomistic.

Engineering / Re: So that's it then?
« on: September 17, 2017, 09:29:38 AM »
Just a quick note.  I'm not being evasive but more important things have popped up at home (specifically, my father-in-law to be who was rushed in with DVTs and - after a few days - has now had most of one leg amputated) so that is now my main priority.  I will come back to the various points raised & do my best to answer them once I've got on top of the domestic situation (and the huge backlog of work).

fully understood Eddie, hope he recovers quickly. In the grand scheme of things answers about the Vulcan are far less important and the lowest priority for you - I'm sure we can all wait for however long it takes for your domestic and work situation to stabilise -

very best wishes

Engineering / Re: So that's it then?
« on: September 16, 2017, 10:18:38 AM »
I've got a pet one, it's very small.

In fact it's minute ;D ;D ;D

Engineering / Re: So that's it then?
« on: September 14, 2017, 12:26:29 PM »
Ooops !!  :))

Yep, fun and games if they've got them there.
From similar experience where I used to work, lots of delays & the additional expense of feasibility studies to get them relocated......then once they are relocated, more delays to ensure no more of them turn up.

that sums it up very well, for the authorised great crested newt guardians it was a licence to print money, I used to have them on sites regularly. As Clive says once you have moved them you then have to stop them coming back usually with newt proof fencing (I joke not!) around excavations etc.

The craziest thing about this is that they are everywhere in the UK so hardly endangered but Europe wide they are scarce in places (maybe the French eat them) so that they are protected under EU law - a bit like illegal immigrants so the whole of the EU is meant to protect them from harm regardless of how common they are in that particular country!

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