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Messages - sickbag_andy

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Engineering / Re: How would you feel?
« on: August 11, 2017, 09:24:26 AM »
Having lived in Blackpool for 21 years, I know only too well what can happen to Vulcans left outside Airports.

Any chance to save her, GO FOR IT!
Crikey, you just come out of hibernation! Is Blackpool that bad ;-)

blimey , a voice from the past!  Duxfordian will re-appear on UKAR*E next.

Welcome back Rob.

BTW our old friend Clive (WCG) still one of our all time highest posters is still alive and active on UKAR where he goes under the name of Brevet Cable, he still reads what he can on here apparently. - best wishes clive!

Engineering / Re: How would you feel?
« on: August 10, 2017, 10:01:58 AM »
I'd be sad to leave these shores but if it ensured a safe future then that would be a good thing.

I agree that the current situation is sad and worrying, these things have a habit of just dragging on with less and less interest as time goes by and she could easily end up basically abandoned there if money dries up.

I think the problems to be overcome in flying her out to the USA are probably too much but if there were a way of flying her out then why not a short ferry flight to a suitable location in this country, I assume that even if the aircraft were registered in the USA the CAA would still have a say on whether or not she could fly in the UK to allow a departure.

I hoped she would be able to taxi at some point but fear that may never happen for the reasons already discussed on here. I feel the safest way to ensure she is preserved well is a move to an established museum in this country even if it means dismantling her and moving here by road so that she can never be powered up again. Gregg said it couldn't happen but I'm not sure why unless he was thinking that it would see a great loss of face by the Trust and that would stop it.
Concorde G-BBDG was moved from Filton to Brooklands in a similar exercise and more recently VC.10 XV808 to Cosford likewise so it is feasible if the will is there, the will may be the biggest obstacle at present.  Second may be money but are the Club funds still waiting to be handed over - in which case could they be assigned to such a plan rather than just going into the wage pot.

The Trust say that 2017 was to be a hibernation year but will there soon be another big appeal to bring her out of hibernation for 2018, I just worry that this 'we need money urgently' scenario will just keep repeating itself whilst she's at a commercial airport because of the pressures of cost for keeping her both hangared and in ground running condition to meet their requirement on the pipedream of a fast taxi which let's face it will only be available to the chosen few and those with deep pockets - not a good way to use valuable money.

If I had a choice I'd rather donate money to see her dismantled and moved somewhere accessible although I wish that had been thought about before flying ceased. I said previously that I thought Doncaster was a good choice whilst she was flying but wrong for once she stopped. She had to be in airworthy condition to fly anyway so there was no extra maintenance costs involved, now she has to be kept close to flying condition if she is allowed anywhere near the runway. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, foresight should have realised that anyway.

Engineering / Re: So that's it then?
« on: August 08, 2017, 01:13:03 PM »
is that NOPE to getting her out by air or NOPE to getting her out at all? I agree that a flight is impossible but if the Trust saw a sensible plan and funds to move her by road even if it meant never ground running again surely that is worthwhile.

If the club funds have not been passed to the trust (and I hope not because I don't see them being used sensibly in the current situation) then could these be designated for a 'by road' move? Yes a destination needs to be identified, ideally with other aircraft but I don't see that as insurmountable. The only thing that might stop it is peoples' pride.

As I said somewhere on here I believe Doncaster was the right solution during the flying era but an alternative was needed one flying ceased due to the need to slot in with airport operations, running a non-airworthy aircraft on a commercial runway was never going to be feasable to any extent.

we can't turn back the clock but IF those remaining funds could be used (or put towards) roading out to a museum then I'm sure that plan would gain more support as needed to make it happen and effectively meet the HLF promise of preserving it in an existing national museum where it could be easily visitable on a regular basis rather than on it's own visited only by those with deep pockets and on occasional days only.

Engineering / Re: So that's it then?
« on: August 05, 2017, 08:45:11 AM »
Or a piece of scrap Vulcan for a price.

hopefully it will never come to that.

now, back to my working life....
regular readers may remember that i worked in the water industry as a project manager on construction projects, some 'clean/drinking water projects' the term 'clean' used to differentiate it from the other 'dirty' water projects that involved treatment of sewage. I expect you wonder what all this has to do with a Vulcan especially early on a Saturday morning - read on.
With 558 parked next to a sewage works which apparently has several large tanks has anyone looked in detail at what those tanks are? Well in the sewage treatment process we had the water to treat and also the solids which we termed sludge (if you saw it you'd understand why). At this point apologies to anybody reading this over breakfast ;). The water which was separated out was quite easy to treat as long as there wasn't a high element of industrial waste in it but the sludge was the bain of our lives, expensive to treat and expensive to transport around, One way of treating sludge was to heat it up in a big tank called a digester and 'cook it' - still enjoying your breakfast?, which killed off the nasty bugs etc and at the same time generated methane (as I do after a curry but without the heat) and as a result these tanks had to be classified exclusion zones with only permit entry and anything capable of generating a spark left outside, even mobile phones, all to prevent exclusion becoming explosion. If and I don't know for sure if there is or not there is one of these on the site then I'm surprised that running up a hot jet engine very close by is considered a good idea with concentrations of methane around, I suppose the lack of reheat does reduce the risk but this still doesn't seem a good location for doing this sort of thing.

as an aside some of those gasses the process produces (hydrogen sulphide in particular) are quite corrosive in the right concentrations but I'll leave that for another day.

Engineering / Re: So that's it then?
« on: August 03, 2017, 02:32:43 PM »

And why have they dumped 558 in the middle of a sh1t farm for pitys sake?  >:( >:(

may I confidently predict that the next special offer from the trust newsletter with be Vulcan endorsed compost?

Engineering / Re: So that's it then?
« on: August 03, 2017, 08:51:49 AM »
I always worried that the funding wouldn't last to finance the grand ETNA scheme and that it would all end in tears. There were discussions re the sustainability of future funding here back in 2015:

PA28 wrote the following: Before such monies are granted, the various backers have to be convinced that the team running it is right and that the business plan is achievable - ensuring success on many fronts.

The Trust is part-way along that road and is aiming high.  Good luck I say

I posted the following reply: I would have rather hoped that with 558 now unable to leave Doncaster that the Trust would be all or virtually all of the way along that road otherwise there would be some doubt as to whether the aims can be achieved.

Cast your minds back 8 years or so and all the talk was of simply obtaining a major sponsor (and the thought appeared to be that it would be easy) and all would be rosy and the annual scratching for funds from the public would not be needed, history shows different and the BIG question is, what if those backers cannot be convinced? I hope the Trust's final act is not to sell of 1" squares of 558's wings to settle the debts. I'm afraid I still feel a lower risk option for the final resting place should have been sought.

it really does seem that all those chickens are now coming home to roost, with those sad pics of 558 parked next to the sewage works, having worked in the water industry for 40 years I know what a nice environment they are (some are actually okay but they always smell) so it's almost a case of that old phrase 'always in the s*1t, just the depth that varies - it seems that 558 is now in the deeper extremes.
The fact that the Trust gambled on grounding 558 at Finningley when flying ceased without guaranteed funding for sustainable plans is lamentable, it was obvious that direct debits would soon dry up, the goodwill of the former club membership lost in a new but floundering guardian scheme, yes many of the ex. club members signed up as founder guardians on the basis of promises of special benefits but how many will re-join now those promises have failed AND how is it ever likely to now draw new members to the guardian scheme. It's now out of sight and out of mind except for those few who really care.

As was pointed out earlier in this topic, the heritage document document stated it's aims as:
At the end of its flying life, to retire the aircraft to a National Museum in perpetuity, surely an established sustainable museum would have been a far safer option than a pipedream that is looking more and more of a remote possibility
it also stated:
To provide access to the aircraft for the widest audience; to involve the public in experiencing the aircraft, okay it has been available for the public but only at a very high price for the experience days, - far beyond the pocket of the average joe public, the prices charged all have an extra nought or two on the end compared to other establishments. An easily accessible location NOT on a working commercial airport had far more chance of ever achieving that. Even if taxi runs were ever achieved then they too would not be in the same price bracket as the CWJ days or Wellesbourne wings and wheels but priced as an exclusive day out for the prawn sandwich brigade as that type have often been described. Far from the stated aims in the heritage document 'Summary Information Return 2012', and now totally unachievable as there is no way out of Doncaster (at least not a palatable one), sadly it's best chance of survival is to be dis-assembled and moved to another, sorry a museum albeit with the acceptance that it will only ever be a static exhibit otherwise it could end up rotting it's days away unseen by anyone except those with very deep pockets and a lacking sense of smell.
The further away it is from the public eye the less likely it is that people will continue to support it financially when they see nothing in return, as I said earlier the guardians will slowly stop re-newing  (the take up on the first renewal demands will be interesting but no doubt a glossy spin will be put on it) and all that core support will gradually ebb away. People will simply look for a similar project with better access at a much lower price and possibly closer to their homes - the Vulcan doesn't come to then any more, it can't, they have to go to it and for some that journey even when it's in a hangar on show is just too far. The only thing that is different is the number on the tail and the memories - the Trust can't rely on that for ever.
do I feel let down - yes, do I feel disappointed - partly yes (because of all those memories) but almost no because I feared this could be the outcome without funds in the bank whether or not the hangar remained available.

Just brighten things up a bit here's a memory of far happier days:
0721 plan view vulcan by Andrew Goldsmith, on Flickr

(ignore the date on the watermark, I had to re-do everything when PB decided it didn't like me anymore) ;)

Engineering / Re: So that's it then?
« on: July 31, 2017, 10:07:24 AM »
Not likely,  for what it's worth I don't think Brunty was the right place for her either

I noticed this comment Sam and back in 2012 there was a long topic discussing it, I had one or two doubts about Brunty then because of the commercial growth there. It's pretty packed with stored airliners nowadays.

I ran a poll on that thread (I expect some of our remaining visitors conrtibuted votes) and my choice at that time was Yeovilton, these were my reasons:
1: It already has a museum open to the public
2: It has an annual air show which would provide an opportunity for fast taxi runs without extra costs of setting up for a unique event
3: It is in the south west which is totally void of Vulcans at present - the nearest are either Hendon or Wellesbourne so there would be a uniqueness factor missing elsewhere in the country
4: with all the defence cuts there is probably spare hangarage there which could be used to develop the VE3 and get 558 under cover at the lowest cost (i.e. not building something new)
5: not a commercial airport so would not interfere with commercial operations

for me this would be my choice if Bruntingthorpe was ruled out , I think it comes nearer to ticking all the boxes and in some ways the options make it better than Brunty - discuss? I hope so and I hope the powers that be will be taking note of the poll and comments.

the poll was done at a time when the Trust were after feedback and not surprisingly Bruntingthorpe was top but Yeovilton 2nd with over 100 votes cast in total.

here's a link to the topic and poll:

so where did you feel was right then Sam (reply here or on the poll topic)

- there were some very constructive comments and arguments for all 10 sites on the poll which were picked from a previous topic that had numerous ideas, I did rationalise it down to what seemed to be the most popular and realistic options but I think it was a good reflection of feeling.

Engineering / Re: So that's it then?
« on: July 12, 2017, 09:44:48 AM »
The latest I have heard is that all three aircraft will be moved outside at the end of the month....

There is a plan to cover them up with tarpaulins - I can think of no reason to do this other than to try and hide the fact that they are outside.  It certainly will not give them any protection from the weather and judging by the state of the VC 10's when they left Abingdon will only serve to promote the corrosion and degradation.

It seems there is a problem with the planning permission for the land for the new hangar so Iguess they won't be moving in by the end of 2017.

I have heard that there was another secret engine run last week.

I have also heard that 558 has been dinked and is need of some paint repair - if the paint needs to be repaired what has happened to the structure?

It's all looking very like the group that "took over" the Shackleton at Coventry, they then spent all of the money which had been donated having fun trying carrying out runs to train up people who had never been near an aircraft in their lives.

Sam - are you aware that this (and other posts of your's) are being copied and pasted on UKARSE verbatim, this is quoted in full on page 223 of their Vulcan topic by their most un-charming aggressive poster of them all (Dano'Hating if you weren't aware) followed of course by his usual standard of vitriol in reply. There are other smaller quotes elsewhere too, I do hope (but doubt) they have asked your permission to reproduce your statements!

Even by their standards it had become most aggressive and un-savoury on there in the last few days, quite surprised when I looked this morning, hopefully RIAT will prove a temporary distraction over the next day or two for those of them who are above school age although the way they behave I doubt it!

It does make me wonder whether this topic should be moved into a more private section of the forum?

I had heard (and seen elsewhere) that photobucket were doing this and while I was on my Scottish steam train and whisky jolly, photobucket have got round to my account, removed all my photos and mucked up my signature by disabling my account! that's an awful lot of of photos suddenly not visible. I started re-hosting some on Flickr before I went but loads more to do from 2013 and earlier. I doubt I will ever do all of them, just too much time involved but I will try to get a good selection of my Vulcan pics back as soon as I can so there is a record on here (just hope the forum lasts). I've got hundreds if not thousands on the Civilian Aviation forum (where I'm an admin!) to do and some I will just upload to flickr and post a link to the album rather than individual photos (I have done some of the older airshows on there already).

They are gradually doing this to everyone who links from their photobucket accounts and asking for an annual fee of around $300, I feel that's just holding people to ransom so I'll just use flickr instead and maybe go 'Pro' on there and pay them a subscription - I don't like being bullied so PB won't get my money I'm afraid.

Anyway, if anybody else uses Photobucket as their photo host then be aware that it may soon happen to you too. Flickr's quality is much better anyway.

Rant over!

Engineering / Re: So that's it then?
« on: June 27, 2017, 07:53:38 PM »

The thing is, while I was there I tried to keep as many of the supporters as possible informed.  No the information is for the clique only...

and you made a very good job of it Sam, many thanks

Engineering / Re: So that's it then?
« on: June 22, 2017, 03:44:55 PM »
Is the content UKARSE suddenly gospel on this forum?
Let's at least get some real facts before we start jumping in with those morons..
that other forum was never a source for facts on here!

Heaven forbid Rushy, if it were then we might as well all give up. If they WERE a source of facts then the first thing l would do would be to ask them for this Saturdays lottery numbers and bail out 558 with slme of the winnings!

tHey doo enjoy  stoking fireS on their so maybe them shud sponsor a water bmober. (Deliberate mis-spellings so the usual suspect can have a dig at me, since he accused me of trolling l stopped posting, got fed up of his antics but the chosen few still adore him!

Engineering / Re: So that's it then?
« on: June 21, 2017, 06:38:08 PM »
Now the engines have been run there is no inhibiting oil in the fuel system.  The inhibiting oil prevents the seals in the fuel system from rotting.  It took Ray two days to drain the system and inhibit the engines.  Now the engines have been run they need to be run every 28 days.  Perhaps some of Taffs volunteers have magically learnt how to inhibit the engines.

That does sound a bit of a worry but how do all the other preserved aircraft at places like Bruntingthorpe and Elvington get on. Do they do regular anti-det runs on them. If they do then they dont give much publicty to them and would have thought they could attract a few extra visitors if the public were told they were happening.

I do worry that 558 is going to continually lurch from one problem (dont like to use the word crisis) and sooner or later the support will dry up. Shame there arent any remaining club funs that can be used to protect her but l assume even if they havent been finally handed over yet they will only go on wages when they finally do reach the trust. I do wonder why they need to retain several full time staff members now, other groups dont  operate on that model and are successful in thier aspirations.

Ive said it before and l will say it again, lf only the vote hadnt been for integration but association we would be in a much stronger position to give the right kind of selective help.

I've finally joined them, got a nice e-mail back from one of the trustees as well.

Must get there again sometime, it's only 30 miles away for me.

Has anybody else seen this :

They have been helped with a hangar but are trying to raise £10k to help kit it out to make it visitor and engineering friendly.Great to see her finally inside after all these years, I've made a small donation this evening and they are already over 10% of the way there.

their website:


Aviation Waffle / Re: Douglas C54 Skymaster at North Weald
« on: May 18, 2017, 08:57:33 PM »
How about diverting the residual Club funds to either this project or the "Just Jane" project ? far more credible than further donations to the VTTS Trust money pit !!

that is a nice idea but I very much doubt it could be done legally. I believe part of the agreement to wind up the club and integrate was that the funds would be handed over to the Trust. I think it would be a case of forming a new supporters group for the Skymaster and starting from scratch albeit with a bit of accrued experience in fundraising.

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