Author Topic: 9th Oct. Newsbytes  (Read 43941 times)

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Offline Gully

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Re: 9th Oct. Newsbytes
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2012, 11:59:22 PM »
@wcg - dialogue between the Club Committee and the Trust is open, full and regular. Our opinions, ideas and suggestions are welcomed and do contribute to the Trust's decision-making process. I won't be drawn into discussing Friday's Newsbytes, but suffice it to say that your comments regarding Club input are misplaced.

Regards,

Gully
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Offline Gregg

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Re: 9th Oct. Newsbytes
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2012, 01:08:14 AM »
I think Clive meant club members rather than the committee.
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Offline wcg

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Re: 9th Oct. Newsbytes
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2012, 07:42:19 AM »
Gully ;
I have to ask the obvious question..........how can the "Club" { as in , the rank-and-file Members } be represented if they are not consulted ??
You say it yourself : "dialogue between the Club Committee and the Trust is open, full and regular. Our opinions, ideas and suggestions are welcomed"
The Club Committee are there to represent the Club Membership , are they not ??
The "Our" in your statement would patently refer to the Committee , NOT the General Membership.........it cannot be otherwise , as the General Members have had no input.
{ Simple maths......12 Committee , over 8000 Members means that the Committee constitutes a mere 0.15% or so of the membership }

The majority of the Clubs I've been a Member of in the past { before the days of E-mail & text-messaging } , some of which had larger Memberships than VTTSC , had a simple system --- day-to-day or other minor decisions were naturally left to the Committee ; for any major decisions , the General Membership was contacted & opinions sought { or votes taken } before any action was taken by the Committee.

You'd have to admit......the final plans for XH558 certainly fits the category of "major decision" , especially given the fact that any decision reached will invariably involve further payments of funds from the Club to the Trust.
If the Committee - on behalf of the Membership - are involved in any discussions re. the Ve3 project , then the Membership need to be consulted...even if that 'consultation' merely consists of waiting until Friday's announcement then putting it to a vote by the Membership as to whether or not they agree with the plans & therefore whether or not Club funding should be given to it.

Oh , and before anyone mentions "that's what the AGM is for" -- sorry , that's a different entity entirely .... the simple truth is that only a very small number of Club Members have the time , finances or ability to attend the AGM.
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Offline scampton61

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Re: 9th Oct. Newsbytes
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2012, 09:17:12 AM »
Quote from: "wcg"
If the Committee - on behalf of the Membership - are involved in any discussions re. the Ve3 project , then the Membership need to be consulted...even if that 'consultation' merely consists of waiting until Friday's announcement then putting it to a vote by the Membership as to whether or not they agree with the plans & therefore whether or not Club funding should be given to it.

Where in the club constitution does it say members have a right to vote on the future of XH558, or whether to hand funds to the Trust or not? The Club was set up to support XH558's flight operations and preservation - nothing in the Trust's plans/Ve3 goes against that (however realistic or not you view Ve3 to be), therefore no requirement for a vote. Does your MP consult you before every parliamentary vote, your local councillor? The whole Ve3 is a consultation, not a plan set in stone - the opportunity to agree, disagree or make other suggestions is a part of the document, thus no need for a separate Club consultation/vote, even if the constitution allowed for it.
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Offline brains_mt

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Re: 9th Oct. Newsbytes
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2012, 09:51:37 AM »
In a couple of weeks or so you will be receiving the next club mag. In our letter to members in the front we have written that we will welcome your comments and suggestions on the future of the club, and it is expected there will be a wide range of comments about the future of 558 too.

The committee need to know what the membership thinks of course, and I'm sure that after Friday and in the next week or two things will become clearer and as we get the reaction from members we will be able to plan where we as a club go from here. I hope there is a great deal of comment from a good number of our members.

Please be patient for a little longer and bear in mind there are only two members of the committee who don't work full time. We are expecting the next few weeks to be very busy, and there is also a committee meeting next week.

In the meantime, what Scampton has posted is correct.

Ve3 is a consultation document and not set in stone and I wonder how many of you have replied to the document with your opinion. If you have anything you want put in writing then please do so and send it to me PO Box 7717 Derby DE1 0RN I will be very pleased to receive it and it will be used to inform the future of the club and its support of XH558. All comments will help to inform our conversation with the Trust too.
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Offline wcg

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Re: 9th Oct. Newsbytes
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2012, 10:51:26 AM »
Jane ;
A much more measured & informative response than scampton61's.
Nowhere have I said that the Ve3 plan is anything but a consultation document at present -- I merely said that if the Club Committee are part of the consultation process , then the Membership should be involved as well......and It's good to see from your post that this apparently will be the case.

The only comment I will make regarding his post is his exhortation : "Where in the club constitution does it say members have a right to vote on the future of XH558, or whether to hand funds to the Trust or not?"
It doesn't !!  What it does say is : "To support Avro Vulcan B.2 XH558 (G-VLCN), its flight operations, and its long term preservation" -- you will note that the wording specifies supporting XH558 ... the Trust isn't mentioned here at all.
IF , therefore , a sufficient number of Club Members express doubts as to whether or not the Trust's  plans are "detrimental to XH558's 'long term preservation'" , then they have the right to invoke Article 13 of the Constitution and call for an EGM to discuss whether or not the Club should support the Trust's plans financially or otherwise.

If , however , the Club Committee are actively seeking feedback from the Membership on this issue { as appears to be the case } , then this is welcome news.

Oh , and yes , I did give my feedback to the original consultation document.

As an aside to your final paragraph......
Rather than writing to you , would it not be possible to have a dedicated topic here on the Forum for Club Members to leave their feedback , or would this be impractical ??
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Offline speedy

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Re: 9th Oct. Newsbytes
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2012, 11:14:56 AM »
Why do I worry that if it's announced that 2013 is the last planned flying season, donations will immediately dry up and 2012 will in fact have been so?

Anyway, the wording strikes me as being positive, but then I could be reading too much into it....

"On Thursday, members of the VTST management team met with the charity's Board of Trustees in London to discuss planning for next season. This was convened in view of the funding shortfall announced last week to reach the 2013 season and to enable clarification on the options available to extending out airframe life and XH558's display capabilities beyond the next major known structural modification. This will be required over the winter service of 2013 to 2014."

Now, surely the wording be "would be required" would suggest that it's in the balance?  "Will be required" suggests to me that it's currently the plan to proceed with it.  Of course, that could all just be smoke and mirrors, but I guess we'll find out soon.
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Offline brains_mt

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Re: 9th Oct. Newsbytes
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2012, 11:49:07 AM »
There can be a dedicated thread on the forum but so very few members read the forum that it will be a discussion between the few of us on here. Out of a membership of over 5000 with around 10000 members the forum is a very small catchment.

The committee would prefer hard copies of responses in order to collate and present a well informed response to the Trust. Email is another way to contact any of the committee but it would be best to keep one point of contact for this namely myself. (easier to keep track of) I will of course keep the committee informed of responses.

jane.thomas@vulcantotheskyclub.co.uk

The members of the committee do receive calls and emails from members, and we also meet and talk to members throughout the year at events. We are aware that there is a great amount of emotion and invested interest in our vulcan and we will be ready to welcome any and all views and comments.
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Offline wcg

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Re: 9th Oct. Newsbytes
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2012, 12:12:14 PM »
Jane ;
I was thinking along the lines of having a topic here available as an additional alternative to writing to you , as it's naturally cheaper to post your opinions here than it is to send it by mail.
If E-Mail is available as an option , all the better.

No doubt the Committee have already noted the opinions and concerns of those of us who have posted on the subject of the Ve3 plans , but I await Friday's Newsletter in order to compare it to the initial Ve3 consultation plans before passing further comment if required.
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Offline Gregg

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Re: 9th Oct. Newsbytes
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2012, 12:18:03 PM »
Nick: a service would be needed regardless of whever she flys or not.
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Offline speedy

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Re: 9th Oct. Newsbytes
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2012, 12:21:46 PM »
Quote from: "Gregg"
Nick: a service would be needed regardless of whever she flys or not.

Service, yes (assuming the fast taxi plan happens), but fatigue extension mod to the leading edge?  I thought other aircraft that were out of fatigue life were still allowed to fast taxi, like Tina, for example?
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Guest »
“If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: it's all balls.” — R. J. Mitchell

Government.  If you think the problems they create are bad, you should see their solutions.

Offline wcg

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Re: 9th Oct. Newsbytes
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2012, 12:34:21 PM »
Quote from: "speedy"
Now, surely the wording be "would be required" would suggest that it's in the balance?  "Will be required" suggests to me that it's currently the plan to proceed with it.
Technically , it could even be "may be required".....after all , wouldn't it depend on how much of the remaining FI was used-up next year , which would depend on how many flight hours , weather conditions encountered , etc.
{ sort of a "good news/bad news"  -- displays missed due to weather/tech issues would mean the FI lasts longer , but would lead to a loss of revenue }

Gregg ;
If you mean for 2014 ... assuming 2013 is the final flying year , then the answer would depend on the plans for '558.
If kept in ground-running/fast-taxiing condition , then yes , some level of servicing would be required - but presumably without the need to service such items as the ejector seats { inerted } , Fatigue meters , Oxygen Cylinders  & no need for NDT Inspections.
If simply kept as a static exhibit , then none of this would be needed.
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Offline speedy

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Re: 9th Oct. Newsbytes
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2012, 02:32:22 PM »
I'm pretty sure it was said previously that the fatigue mode would be done 2013/2014 or not at all?  Granted the few displays missed due to the engine failure will have reduced the FI use this year, but then wouldn't an extra flight or flights have been required with the replaced engines to make sure all was well?  Who knows?  We might find out RR have decided that as the engine use is so closely monitored and regulated, she can get another five years out of the engines!  Yeah, OK, I'm getting carried away... ;-)  I just hope it's all positive.  I think it's too soon after restoration for 558 to become stuffed and mounted if there's any way of avoiding it.
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 01:00:00 AM by Guest »
“If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: it's all balls.” — R. J. Mitchell

Government.  If you think the problems they create are bad, you should see their solutions.

Offline Gregg

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Re: 9th Oct. Newsbytes
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2012, 04:06:28 PM »
You're not getting carried away Nick, it's entirely possible that they will. Can't comment on the likelihood though.
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Offline Gully

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Re: 9th Oct. Newsbytes
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2012, 04:47:02 PM »
Just for clarity, the Club autumn magazine will urge that all of our Members provide their feedback in respect of the Ve3 document, which should be sent directly to Dr. Pleming at the Trust (as per the original version). We will also be consulting on various matters relating to the Club, with feedback being sent through to Jane and Malcolm. Of course, any Ve3 comments we receive we will pass on.

With regards to what our constitution says about preservation, one must also bear in mind that under the current Memorandum of Understanding between the Trust and Club that was signed in 2007, the Club accepts that all ownership and operational matters are the sole purview of the Trust. Furthermore, given that the HLF has been consulted on Ve3, it would be difficult to argue the Club withdrawing support when preservation is a constituted aim for us. Should there be a future change in ownership of the aircraft (for instance, if the current Trust was replaced by another to manage, say, Ve3 and / or XH558 in retirement), then in theory, our constitution would oblige us to transfer support to that new organisation.

Anyway, we're getting ahead of ourselves and dealing with 'what ifs'! Let's just see what Friday's Newsbytes says.

Gully
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