Author Topic: vulcan film clip "airbrakes"  (Read 21037 times)

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derek 125

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vulcan film clip "airbrakes"
« on: November 20, 2013, 09:21:58 AM »
as an aircraft enthusiast commercial and military, just wondered if anyone else saw the second part of "strange days cold war Britain" bbc2 i ask this as there was a 10 sec shot of a Vulcan taking OFF with all 4 air brakes deployed top off wing surface ,i cant believe this was not an error on the pilot,.. these brakes are for drag and lift dump, no way should they have been up on take off,in the film clip it was TAKING off under full power minus reheat, to around 100 ft the airbrakes should have been down at lift off , when its a touch and go you dont apply braking anyway, ive seen these vulcans do this many times as they were based near me, anyone want the film clip of this i can e-mail it to them

Offline scampton61

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Re: vulcan film clip "airbrakes"
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2013, 10:26:08 AM »
Derek, Vulcans don't have reheat. Airbrakes are used on an approach to a touch and go (see link to video below, bit blurry but air brakes can be seen), maybe the pilot was a bit slow in retracting them.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andyrad/7122002383/

derek 125

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Re: vulcan film clip "airbrakes"
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2013, 10:52:17 AM »
yes very slow to retract the brakes then at 100 ft?
 btw the vulcans i used to watch here at finningley did have reheat
" By 1964, the BSEL Olympus Mk 302 engines with reheat were being rated at over 30,000lbs of thrust. A massive three fold engine power enhancement in the space of just 10 years.

Offline scampton61

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Re: vulcan film clip "airbrakes"
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2013, 11:04:36 AM »
Sorry Derek, don't know what you think you saw at Finningley, but Vulcans have never had reheat (except for those that acted as test-beds carrying underslung TSR2, Concorde and Tornado engines). The last derivative of the Olympus used by the Vulcan fleet was the 301 (which doesn't have reheat), the engine your quote refers to was being developed for TSR2 and Concorde. There are Vulcan engineers on here (including one that works on XM655, a 301 series engined Vulcan) that can verify this.

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Re: vulcan film clip "airbrakes"
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2013, 11:49:39 AM »
I know the Olympus engines on Vulcans did not have re-heat but on the air brakes I was discussing 'Falklands Most Daring Raid' with a visitor to MX569 cockpit last week and he asked how they got the flying sequences.
I told them it was XM655 for the ground shots and XH558 for the flying sequences. However, when the raid was completed and they were banking and climbing to get away from the scene the air brakes were deployed!!!!

I said this was probably during a display when she was starting a spiral climb, air brakes used to slow her down or she'd be up to 10,000 ft before you could blink  :D
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derek 125

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Re: vulcan film clip "airbrakes"
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2013, 12:35:10 PM »
scampton
slight hiccup on my behalf (and me an enthusiast ,doh,)getting reheat mixed up with after burners which i saw in operation many times

derek 125

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Re: vulcan film clip "airbrakes"
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2013, 12:40:52 PM »
just watched film again the aircraft was XH481
the programme is on again Wednesday BBC2  at 12.50 AM sequence is 10 mins into progl

derek 125

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Re: vulcan film clip "airbrakes"
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2013, 01:00:06 PM »
well seems all forums say no reheat / afterburners, must be what i thought i saw as a very much younger guy, like all summers were sunny then (and not)

Offline deeleyt

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Re: vulcan film clip "airbrakes"
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2013, 09:40:03 PM »
Think you are confusing the Olympus 320/321 (B Oly 22R developing 36000lb thrust) which was developed from the B Oly 21R (Effectively a 301 with a re-heat stage added). This was developed from the Olympus 301 (B Oly 21). The final engine fitted to a Vulcan was the 301 developing 18000 lb thrust without re-heat/afterburner.

Offline johnjosh43

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Re: vulcan film clip "airbrakes"
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2013, 11:46:42 PM »
Agree no reheat/afterburners but were there ever any occasions when flames could be seen at the back ?
I must admit that the jet pipes are very long so it's probably very unlikely.

Offline Zero One

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Re: vulcan film clip "airbrakes"
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2013, 12:36:24 AM »
btw the vulcans i used to watch here at finningley did have reheat
" By 1964, the BSEL Olympus Mk 302 engines with reheat were being rated at over 30,000lbs of thrust. A massive three fold engine power enhancement in the space of just 10 years.


sorry Derek, you are mistaken... Vulcans last fit were 202s and 301s with no reheat.. this was not possible as the engines were/are fitted amidships with I believe a 24ft jet pipe which made it impossible to operate an afterburner or reheat..

the only Olympus engines fitted with burners were the 320.. developed for TSR2 and 593 fitted to Concorde..

below is the family tree from 202 onward... 

Olympus Mk 202 Disputed. Either Olympus Mk 201 modified with rapid air starter,[21] or Olympus Mk 201 with redesigned oil separator breathing system.[22] This was the definitive '200 series' engine fitted to Vulcans not fitted with the Mk 301. The restored Vulcan XH558 is fitted with Olympus Mk 202 engines.[23] 'Olympus Mk 203' Very occasional reference to this elusive mark of engine can be found in some official Air Publications relating to the Vulcan B2. It is also noted in a manufacturer's archived document dated circa 1960.[24]

Olympus Mk 301 (BOl.21) Additional zero stage on LP compressor. 20,000 lbf (89 kN) thrust.[25] Later Vulcan B2 aircraft plus nine earlier aircraft[N 2] retrofitted.[26] Later derated to 18,000 lbf (80 kN) thrust.[27] Restored to original rating for Operation Black Buck.[28]

Olympus Mk 320 at the RAF Museum, Cosford. Mk.320 The performance specification for TSR2 was issued in 1962. It was to be powered by two BSEL Olympus Mk 320 (BOl.22R) engines rated at 30,610 lbf (136.2 kN) with reheat at take-off. The engine was a cutting edge derivative of the Olympus Mk 301 with a Solar-type afterburner.[32] The engine first ran in March 1961 and was test flown in February 1962 underslung Vulcan B1 XA894 and was demonstrated at the Farnborough Air Show in September. In December 1962 during a full power ground run at Filton, the engine blew up after an LP turbine failure, completely destroying its host Vulcan in the subsequent fire.[33] On its first flight in September 1964 the engines of the TSR-2 were scarcely flightworthy being derated and cleared for one flight. Nevertheless, the risk was deemed acceptable in the political climate of the time. With new engines, the TSR-2 XR219 flew another 23 times before the project was cancelled in 1965.[34]

Olympus 510 series With a thrust in the region of 15,000 lbf (67 kN) to 19,000 lbf (85 kN), the 510 series were civilianised versions of the BOl.6.[29] A team was sent to Boeing at Seattle to promote the engine in 1956 but without success.[30]

Olympus 551 The Olympus 551 'Zephyr' was a derated and lightened version of the BOl.6 and rated at 13,500 lbf (60 kN) thrust. The engine was the subject of a licence agreement between Bristol Aero Engines and the Curtiss-Wright Corporation - the engine being marketed in the USA as the Curtiss-Wright TJ-38 Zephyr. There were hopes to fit the Olympus 551 to the Avro Type 740 and Bristol Type 200 trijet airliners which did not progress beyond the project stage. Curtiss-Wright also failed to market the engine.[31]

and finally..
Olympus 593
Main article: Rolls-Royce/Snecma Olympus 593
 The Rolls-Royce/Snecma Olympus 593 was a reheated version of the Olympus which powered the supersonic airliner Concorde.[35] The Olympus 593 project was started in 1964, using the TSR2's Olympus Mk 320 as a basis for development.[36] BSEL and Snecma Moteurs of France were to share the project.[35] Acquiring BSEL in 1966, Rolls-Royce continued as the British partner.[37]
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Offline Gregg

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Re: vulcan film clip "airbrakes"
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2013, 10:03:22 AM »
Agree no reheat/afterburners but were there ever any occasions when flames could be seen at the back ?
I must admit that the jet pipes are very long so it's probably very unlikely.

Yup, during catastrophic engine failure often after ingesting something...
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Re: vulcan film clip "airbrakes"
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2013, 01:29:56 PM »
 :)) Oh you're so going to get slapped - lol

Offline Sad Sam

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Re: vulcan film clip "airbrakes"
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2013, 10:59:28 PM »
Form an orderly queue please.......
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Offline AlbertMcwaters

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Re: vulcan film clip "airbrakes"
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2014, 09:47:24 AM »
btw the vulcans i used to watch here at finningley did have reheat
" By 1964, the BSEL Olympus Mk 302 engines with reheat were being rated at over 30,000lbs of thrust. A massive three fold engine power enhancement in the space of just 10 years.


sorry Derek, you are mistaken... Vulcans last fit were 202s and 301s with no reheat.. this was not possible as the engines were/are fitted amidships with I believe a 24ft jet pipe which made it impossible to operate an afterburner or reheat..

the only Olympus engines fitted with burners were the 320.. developed for TSR2 and 593 fitted to Concorde..

below is the family tree from 202 onward... 

Olympus Mk 202 Disputed. Either Olympus Mk 201 modified with rapid air starter,[21] or Olympus Mk 201 with redesigned oil separator breathing system.[22] This was the definitive '200 series' engine fitted to Vulcans not fitted with the Mk 301. The restored Vulcan XH558 is fitted with Olympus Mk 202 engines.[23] 'Olympus Mk 203' Very occasional reference to this elusive mark of engine can be found in some official Air Publications relating to the Vulcan B2. It is also noted in a manufacturer's archived document dated circa 1960.[24]

Olympus Mk 301 (BOl.21) Additional zero stage on LP compressor. 20,000 lbf (89 kN) thrust.[25] Later Vulcan B2 aircraft plus nine earlier aircraft[N 2] retrofitted.[26] Later derated to 18,000 lbf (80 kN) thrust.[27] Restored to original rating for Operation Black Buck.[28]

Olympus Mk 320 at the RAF Museum, Cosford. Mk.320 The performance specification for TSR2 was issued in 1962. It was to be powered by two BSEL Olympus Mk 320 (BOl.22R) engines rated at 30,610 lbf (136.2 kN) with reheat at take-off. The engine was a cutting edge derivative of the Olympus Mk 301 with peimar solar-type afterburner.[32] The engine first ran in March 1961 and was test flown in February 1962 underslung Vulcan B1 XA894 and was demonstrated at the Farnborough Air Show in September. In December 1962 during a full power ground run at Filton, the engine blew up after an LP turbine failure, completely destroying its host Vulcan in the subsequent fire.[33] On its first flight in September 1964 the engines of the TSR-2 were scarcely flightworthy being derated and cleared for one flight. Nevertheless, the risk was deemed acceptable in the political climate of the time. With new engines, the TSR-2 XR219 flew another 23 times before the project was cancelled in 1965.[34]

Olympus 510 series With a thrust in the region of 15,000 lbf (67 kN) to 19,000 lbf (85 kN), the 510 series were civilianised versions of the BOl.6.[29] A team was sent to Boeing at Seattle to promote the engine in 1956 but without success.[30]

Olympus 551 The Olympus 551 'Zephyr' was a derated and lightened version of the BOl.6 and rated at 13,500 lbf (60 kN) thrust. The engine was the subject of a licence agreement between Bristol Aero Engines and the Curtiss-Wright Corporation - the engine being marketed in the USA as the Curtiss-Wright TJ-38 Zephyr. There were hopes to fit the Olympus 551 to the Avro Type 740 and Bristol Type 200 trijet airliners which did not progress beyond the project stage. Curtiss-Wright also failed to market the engine.[31]

and finally..

Olympus 593
Main article: Rolls-Royce/Snecma Olympus 593
 The Rolls-Royce/Snecma Olympus 593 was a reheated version of the Olympus which powered the supersonic airliner Concorde.[35] The Olympus 593 project was started in 1964, using the TSR2's Olympus Mk 320 as a basis for development.[36] BSEL and Snecma Moteurs of France were to share the project.[35] Acquiring BSEL in 1966, Rolls-Royce continued as the British partner.[37]
Thanks for sharing information. I have been searching for it for a while and finally got this old informative post.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 03:11:39 PM by AlbertMcwaters »