Author Topic: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!  (Read 22549 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline planenut

  • Club Member
  • Expert User
  • *****
  • Posts: 2874
    • View Profile
Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2015, 09:52:14 AM »
Indeed, there were a lot of comments flying around on this forum when the unfortunate incident occurred, some of it got quite heated so that particular moment is well remembered.

Please, please can we start again? I'm ready, though it would not change the current situation.
I said "no more passwords" and look what happened!

Offline Funtera

  • Club Member
  • Serious User
  • *****
  • Posts: 962
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Mach Loop
Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2015, 09:54:39 AM »
Please, please can we start again? I'm ready, though it would not change the current situation.

Agreed

 @funtera
EOS50D & EF 70-300mm IS USM Combo
Proud Owner of Haynes Manual H4831 Vulcan B2 Signed by Martin Withers
HATO

Offline Vulcanatic

  • Regular User
  • *****
  • Posts: 97
  • Gender: Male
  • Vulcan Fanatic
    • View Profile
Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2015, 10:12:17 AM »
Not a case of trivialising the debacle but facts are facts - you simply wouldn't believe what problems have been cause on here and other fora over incorrect information being quoted as fact.

Either the article I read this in at that time was erroneous in its engine count or my memory is rustier than I thought. Sorry!
Chris

Offline eqcons

  • phpBB Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 4
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2015, 03:08:15 PM »
I apologise in advance, because I'm sure this is a stupid question.  I'm not au fait with the technical side of things, but if engine supply is a problem, are there no spare Concorde engines that could be used?  (Yes, I'm sure it's a different version of the Olympus, but....)  And if they could be used, but don't exist, how are the recently publicised group of Concorde enthusiasts adamant that they'll have a Concorde flying again by 2019?  (I'm aware of those involved in the XH558 project who say that will never happen, but if it's that simple, why does this group think it can be done...)

Jim

Offline StAthan lecky

  • Club Member
  • Expert User
  • *****
  • Posts: 1975
    • View Profile
Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2015, 03:19:51 PM »
The issue isn't about engines,it is all about withdrawal of "Engineering Support" by the companies that have engineering authority over 558's continuing maintenance and long term viability as an airworthy aircraft,namely Rolls Royce,BAe Systems and Marshalls of Cambridge.

Mike
1000+ Posts and not a Newbie

Freddie Mercury and Queen Will Live Forever

Another "Kind Of Magic"

Offline eqcons

  • phpBB Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 4
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2015, 03:50:43 PM »
The issue isn't about engines,it is all about withdrawal of "Engineering Support" by the companies that have engineering authority over 558's continuing maintenance and long term viability as an airworthy aircraft,namely Rolls Royce,BAe Systems and Marshalls of Cambridge.

Mike

Hi Mike, yes I know that.  What I meant was that if RR for example were withdrawing their support because of engine component availability, as I've seen suggested here, why would that necessarily be a problem if Concorde engines (and components) were available, and could be used (I know it's a different Olympus, but if it could be made to fit the airframe, if you see what I mean.) 

Jim

Offline MrTim

  • Global Moderator
  • Expert User
  • *****
  • Posts: 1702
    • View Profile
Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2015, 03:58:19 PM »
They won't fit, full stop.  It's never been an option and never would be.  The only ones that would fit are the type that are currently installed.  The 'alternative engines' suggestion has been covered and regurgitated more times than most of us care to remember.
I'm masking my indifference with a veneer of detachment

Offline eqcons

  • phpBB Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 4
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2015, 04:04:32 PM »
They won't fit, full stop.  It's never been an option and never would be.  The only ones that would fit are the type that are currently installed.  The 'alternative engines' suggestion has been covered and regurgitated more times than most of us care to remember.

Thanks Tim - apologies again, I was unaware that it was old hat.  I was reading the Wiki history of the Vulcan yesterday and noticed that the differing evolutions of Vulcan had had different engines, so wondered if the Concorde type might be adaptable to the airframe. Sorry for my ignorance on the subject.

Jim

Offline planenut

  • Club Member
  • Expert User
  • *****
  • Posts: 2874
    • View Profile
Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2015, 04:09:25 PM »
....... but if it could be made to fit the airframe,

This is another factor, the permissions would not allow any alterations to the airframe, therefore no permit.
I said "no more passwords" and look what happened!

Offline Vulcanatic

  • Regular User
  • *****
  • Posts: 97
  • Gender: Male
  • Vulcan Fanatic
    • View Profile
Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2015, 05:46:08 PM »
They won't fit, full stop.  It's never been an option and never would be.  The only ones that would fit are the type that are currently installed.  The 'alternative engines' suggestion has been covered and regurgitated more times than most of us care to remember.

Thanks Tim - apologies again, I was unaware that it was old hat.  I was reading the Wiki history of the Vulcan yesterday and noticed that the differing evolutions of Vulcan had had different engines, so wondered if the Concorde type might be adaptable to the airframe. Sorry for my ignorance on the subject.

Jim

Hi Jim,

The Olympus 593 was development tested using VULCANVULCAN was used as a test bed for quite a few different engines including the Turbo-Union RB199 as installed in the Panavia Tornado, the engines were usually in an underslung housing, sometimes partially intruding into the bomb bay.  The 593 isn't a compatible type for installation, not least because it uses afterburners whereas the VULCAN never did, (the incredible Concorde was the only passenger carrying aeroplane to utilise afterburning technology).

I think certainly a significant issue with the Technical Authority companies, (apart from money), is the low residual engine life, paucity of spares and restrictions on re-manufacturing major components.  They do genuinely need to consider a lot of the significant risk factors here and the worst case scenario would be a major component failure resulting in XH558 coming down onto a crowd during display.  Worn engines obviously make this more likely.  Structural failure is also a risk factor but in my mind this isn't as likely a scenario as an engine disintegrating.

If, for example, an exercise were undertaken to tool up for remanufacturing major components such as the Jet Turbines to fully recondition all 6 engines owned by the trust to 'as new' condition, with perhaps some additional spares being produced at the same time, the levels of expense would almost certainly be several £Million.

I know it's very easy to state, and I certainly don't have spare ¬£Millions squirreled away, but I think the money SHOULD be found to do the work necessary to give this plane another decade of flight.  It will be very difficult for the Trust to generate such funding, I think that the Government must step in and, for once, spend the public's money on something that the public values.  This will only happen if the Trust shows willing and engages with appropriate Ambassadors / Patrons - the type that doors open for!
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 12:51:55 AM by Vulcanatic »
Chris

Offline eqcons

  • phpBB Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 4
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2015, 05:51:25 PM »
Thanks Chris - an excellent reply, and much clearer to me now.  I knew Concorde used re-heat, but I wasn't aware that Vulcan didn't.

Jim

Offline steve w

  • Club Member
  • Serious User
  • *****
  • Posts: 731
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2015, 06:00:10 PM »
I think you will find that the first supersonic airliner to employ re-heat was the Tu144....

Offline scampton61

  • Club Member
  • Serious User
  • *****
  • Posts: 352
    • View Profile
    • http://www.underthefloor.co.uk
Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2015, 07:19:10 PM »
I think that the Government must step in and, for once, spend the public's money on something that the public values.  This will only happen if the Trust shows willing and engages with appropriate Ambassadors / Patrons - the type that doors open for!

Chris, why do you automatically assume the Trust hasn't shown willing? I suggest you look at the trustees, one of whom is Gerald Howarth MP (shadow defence minister 2002-2010). Another is Sir Donald Spiers, MoD Controller Aircraft 1989-94. Who do you suggest 'opens doors' if they, with their inside knowledge and contacts can't?.

Offline Vulcanatic

  • Regular User
  • *****
  • Posts: 97
  • Gender: Male
  • Vulcan Fanatic
    • View Profile
Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2015, 08:19:03 PM »
I think you will find that the first supersonic airliner to employ re-heat was the Tu144....

Ah Concordski - I stand corrected!  :-[
Chris

Offline Vulcanatic

  • Regular User
  • *****
  • Posts: 97
  • Gender: Male
  • Vulcan Fanatic
    • View Profile
Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2015, 08:21:11 PM »
I think that the Government must step in and, for once, spend the public's money on something that the public values.  This will only happen if the Trust shows willing and engages with appropriate Ambassadors / Patrons - the type that doors open for!

Chris, why do you automatically assume the Trust hasn't shown willing? I suggest you look at the trustees, one of whom is Gerald Howarth MP (shadow defence minister 2002-2010). Another is Sir Donald Spiers, MoD Controller Aircraft 1989-94. Who do you suggest 'opens doors' if they, with their inside knowledge and contacts can't?.

You are right I am making assumptions.
Gerald Who & Donald Who, big guns perhaps but obviously not big enough to push those doors open!
Chris