Author Topic: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!  (Read 21983 times)

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Offline planenut

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Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2015, 08:27:49 PM »

Chris, why do you automatically assume the Trust hasn't shown willing? I suggest you look at the trustees, one of whom is Gerald Howarth MP (shadow defence minister 2002-2010). Another is Sir Donald Spiers, MoD Controller Aircraft 1989-94. Who do you suggest 'opens doors' if they, with their inside knowledge and contacts can't?.

You are right I am making assumptions.
Gerald Who & Donald Who, big guns perhaps but obviously not big enough to push those doors open!
[/quote]

I wouldn't start demeaning those who are already on our side, and whom you have no knowledge of their previous efforts on behalf of XH558.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 09:22:03 PM by planenut »
I said "no more passwords" and look what happened!

Offline leslie

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Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2015, 08:33:08 PM »
The trustees have done everything they can to keep 558 flying, numerous meetings, discussions, presentations, round table meetings, the effort which has been put in to trying to keep her flying is beyond comprehension. Your statement is unfair. If you think you can do a better job, go knock yourself out!!

Offline steve w

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Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2015, 09:18:38 PM »
And ironically met it's civil end in a crash in Paris as did Concorde (eventually).

Bottom line: The world is currently run by risk averse people, in the glorious days it was risk takers. Read "Empire of the Clouds" it will make you weep.

I am an Engineer, I qualified as one when 8% of the population went to University, lets hope that 558's new career inspires the next generation.

Just saying.

Offline eddief

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Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2015, 10:17:30 PM »
I think most of us here share the same values but have different ways of expressing it.

To demonstrate the point, I wrote these words back in March 2009:-

"For me personally, the most important point is that a group of dedicated individuals managed to perform the 'impossible'. Inevitably, the doubters have always been lurking in the shadows - all too quick to write this off as another impossible dream and assert that none of us should waste time with intangible and abstract things such as aspirations, visions or fantasies. I strongly believe that this type of negative-thinking is slowly strangling our society and that it accounts for many commercial and personal failures in the UK every day.  It helps to explain why we can no longer produce miracles of engineering like Concorde, TSR2 - or even vaccuum-cleaners..."

"Consequently, I am proud beyond words that the Vulcan team has weathered the storm and now has something so beautiful and so noisy with which to send doubters scuttling back under their rocks for a long time to come. I sincerely hope that young people over the coming years will see this aircraft, learn how she was saved and be inspired. I want them to learn that 'impossible' normally means 'lazy', 'excuse' or 'no imagination' and that they are entirely capable of achieving just about anything so long as they apply enough intelligence, stamina and courage."


I mention this because I am (quite obviously) a huge supporter of XH558 but I feel the time has come for her based on my own engineering background, my experience as a flight-safety professional & the instincts I am developing as a wannabe pilot.  Yes, she could be re-built & re-engined (requiring certification as a new type of aircraft) but at an absolutely huge cost (£100M+) so it won't happen - sad but (even with my 'can do' attitude) I have to say, true.
985 posts on last forum - so I get the \'hallowed 1000\' for just 15 on this one (yippee!)

Offline Vulcanatic

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Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2015, 12:29:55 AM »

Chris, why do you automatically assume the Trust hasn't shown willing? I suggest you look at the trustees, one of whom is Gerald Howarth MP (shadow defence minister 2002-2010). Another is Sir Donald Spiers, MoD Controller Aircraft 1989-94. Who do you suggest 'opens doors' if they, with their inside knowledge and contacts can't?.

You are right I am making assumptions.
Gerald Who & Donald Who, big guns perhaps but obviously not big enough to push those doors open!

I wouldn't start demeaning those who are already on our side, and whom you have no knowledge of their previous efforts on behalf of XH558.
[/quote]

I'm not sure I agree that I am demeaning efforts of those on our side?
I am very appreciative of what the Trust has achieved and have gone on record as having detailed these prior achievements as near miraculous.

I think that if there is anything these forum posts could teach us it is that the impending end of flight for XH558 is polarising.  Not in terms of devotion to this incredible & magnificent aircraft but in terms of those who would probably view themselves as realists and those who probably think the 'realists' are defeatists.

My 'Gerald Who' & 'Donald Who' was not meant to be personally insulting to either of these individuals, I was simply making a point.  If you were to take a random poll of members of the public in assorted towns & cities, most people, (if not all), wouldn't have the slightest idea who Gerald Howarth or Donald Spiers are.

To get big results you need BIG names!
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 12:55:18 AM by Vulcanatic »
Chris

Offline Vulcanatic

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Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2015, 12:48:52 AM »
I think most of us here share the same values but have different ways of expressing it.

To demonstrate the point, I wrote these words back in March 2009:-

"For me personally, the most important point is that a group of dedicated individuals managed to perform the 'impossible'. Inevitably, the doubters have always been lurking in the shadows - all too quick to write this off as another impossible dream and assert that none of us should waste time with intangible and abstract things such as aspirations, visions or fantasies. I strongly believe that this type of negative-thinking is slowly strangling our society and that it accounts for many commercial and personal failures in the UK every day.  It helps to explain why we can no longer produce miracles of engineering like Concorde, TSR2 - or even vaccuum-cleaners..."

"Consequently, I am proud beyond words that the Vulcan team has weathered the storm and now has something so beautiful and so noisy with which to send doubters scuttling back under their rocks for a long time to come. I sincerely hope that young people over the coming years will see this aircraft, learn how she was saved and be inspired. I want them to learn that 'impossible' normally means 'lazy', 'excuse' or 'no imagination' and that they are entirely capable of achieving just about anything so long as they apply enough intelligence, stamina and courage."


I mention this because I am (quite obviously) a huge supporter of XH558 but I feel the time has come for her based on my own engineering background, my experience as a flight-safety professional & the instincts I am developing as a wannabe pilot.  Yes, she could be re-built & re-engined (requiring certification as a new type of aircraft) but at an absolutely huge cost (£100M+) so it won't happen - sad but (even with my 'can do' attitude) I have to say, true.

Thanks for that incisive contribution Eddie;
If £100M is the sort of money that would be required to recondition major mechanical components & upgrade the structure to buy another decade or two of flight then you're quite right it isn't going to happen, (unless my numbers come up on that quintruple Euromillions rollover).
I had envisaged that the work required could probably be undertaken for a sum somewhere in the region of £5-10M
Chris

Offline leslie

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Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2015, 07:04:06 AM »
The restoration cost 7.5 million 8 years ago that's with spares and an airframe, 100 million might just get you the engines refurbished

Offline MrTim

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Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2015, 08:25:21 AM »
I'd we ask RR nicely, won't they do it for free?  ;) :o >:D
I'm masking my indifference with a veneer of detachment

Offline Vulcanatic

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Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #38 on: October 16, 2015, 01:23:25 PM »
The restoration cost 7.5 million 8 years ago that's with spares and an airframe, 100 million might just get you the engines refurbished

OK, reality kicking in! Angry is turning into sad.  :-X
Chris

Offline Paddy Langdown

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Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #39 on: October 16, 2015, 02:04:09 PM »

Come on Guys & Gals! The decision is made & they will not change their minds. Nobody is more disappointed than I am having flown the aircraft. We have to live with it so let's make the best we can of it & be thankful to those who have helped give us 8 wonderful extra years that we did not expect.

As there is absolutely no point in getting angry, I suggest the thread should be closed!

Offline MrTim

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Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #40 on: October 16, 2015, 03:16:07 PM »
Indeed.  No amount of getting angry, lobbying politicians & companies, signing petitions or involving Royals & celebrities is going to make any difference.

Sure, she could theoretically go on for a few more years, but the unknowns make it too much of a risk.  The experts have made their assessments based on all available evidence and it's time to call it a day gracefully while she is ahead, before something unexpected happens. Hands up those who'd like to see her end on a technical issue or after some sort of emergency...

Incidentally, I did see some photos of the wing spars of another well-known Vulcan recently, and it's fair to say that it was 'quite bent'.  Not that this means that 558 is the same, but she is not immune to fatigue.

I've accepted it's time to say farewell.  Time we all did, I think.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 04:14:25 PM by MrTim »
I'm masking my indifference with a veneer of detachment

Offline Funtera

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Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #41 on: October 16, 2015, 03:39:22 PM »
I've accepted it time to say farewell.  Time we all did, I think.

Agreed .. and I'm extremely grateful for the extra time I've had to see this Great Lady in the Skies

 @funtera
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Offline Rover3500

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Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #42 on: October 16, 2015, 11:53:51 PM »
Indeed.  No amount of getting angry, lobbying politicians & companies, signing petitions or involving Royals & celebrities is going to make any difference.

Sure, she could theoretically go on for a few more years, but the unknowns make it too much of a risk.  The experts have made their assessments based on all available evidence and it's time to call it a day gracefully while she is ahead, before something unexpected happens. Hands up those who'd like to see her end on a technical issue or after some sort of emergency...

Incidentally, I did see some photos of the wing spars of another well-known Vulcan recently, and it's fair to say that it was 'quite bent'.  Not that this means that 558 is the same, but she is not immune to fatigue.

I've accepted it's time to say farewell.  Time we all did, I think.

I think it's important to compare apples with apples - XH558 benefits from more structural modifications and development than any other Vulcan....probably the safest Vulcan ever to fly. The few accidents and subsequent lessons learned after have all benefitted safety.

Bent spars are characteristic of overloading (perhaps accidental damage  in storage?) ...fatigue would show up as cracks occurring before the spars yield strength had been exceeded.

http://www.caa.co.uk/aandocs/27038/27038000000.pdf
 
It's a tribute to the Avro engineers that XH558 is still able to fly safely today  - the test airframe and the modifications ,(2222,2429,2430 & 2221)were certified for many more hours of flight than XH558 attained.


Farewell  XH558 and thanks all  for the memories.
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Offline djrose007

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Re: Don't get sad get ANGRY!!!!
« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2015, 09:39:42 PM »
Personally I'm completely fed up with people not being able to accept that this is the end, and totally agree that shouting about politicians and the technical companies and authorities will do no good whatsoever.
We thought it was the end in 2013, we've had an extra 2 years for which I'm very grateful.
Time to support her in the quest to encourage aeronautical engineering now but it's obviously going to be a lot harder to raise funds when she's not flying.
I cannot express how wonderful it's been, so sad it's over but that's life.
Thanks to everyone that made it possible.
David J Rose Mem. No. 17334
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